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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 11:16 
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Smartguy wrote:
I found only the old text on the ITTF site: http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/ittf_hb.html .

Where can I find the new one?


Will be published soon by the Rules Committee. For now you can go to the World Championships page, look on the left column under "2009 AGM Propositions & Resolutions - RESULTS". It's a PDF document.

Here is the link:
http://www.ittf.com/competitions/compet ... egory=WTTC

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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 13:44 
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Hi Adham its very good that you involve yourself in these forums

The question I want to ask is about service (I know their is a height min and ,from the palm and it must be seen etc)
but how strict are international umpires on a high serve going up and backwards a half metre or around 1-2 feet . Alot of club players start with the ball close to the table but as they are standing say left foot right at the table and thier right foot back at normal width (right handers) the ball is tossed by the left hand and goes up and over in a U shape. I never see umpires wory even at Open events here in NZ and I see this serve done all the time by watching many members vids here and from other forums (I havnt noticed such serves in the top levels).
Is it something umpires look at ?

ps Im not the best server as my hand is never perfectly flat (its hard to twist it flat) lol

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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 13:56 
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rodderz wrote:
Hi Adham its very good that you involve yourself in these forums

The question I want to ask is about service (I know their is a height min and ,from the palm and it must be seen etc)
but how strict are international umpires on a high serve going up and backwards a half metre or around 1-2 feet . Alot of club players start with the ball close to the table but as they are standing say left foot right at the table and thier right foot back at normal width (right handers) the ball is tossed by the left hand and goes up and over in a U shape. I never see umpires wory even at Open events here in NZ and I see this serve done all the time by watching many members vids here and from other forums (I havnt noticed such serves in the top levels).
Is it something umpires look at ?

ps Im not the best server as my hand is never perfectly flat (its hard to twist it flat) lol


I had a very long discussion on this Forum about service with another member (Smartguy, I think) so you could probably fin a lot of information in an earlier part of this thread.

To answer your question, most umpires are not so concerned with the type of throw, basically they want to ensure that the receiver can see the ball at the point of contact, and that the server is not taking any undue advantage by not making a perfect (or near vertical) throw. If the server throws the ball up as you described (U shape throw) and in the process hides the ball at the point of contact with the ball, then the umpire must call it. Also if the U-shape curve is exaggerated, then also it is not a good service. This is left to the discretion of the umpire, as long as he ensures that the point of contact is visible to the receiver.

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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 14:06 
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Thanks for that Adham , its too hard to read 39 pages lol,They should have seperate pages for you ie rules, the world champs ,rubbers etc

thank you for your response

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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 18:44 
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haggisv wrote:
I think I can answer that for you... Adham can correct me if I'm wrong :wink: The 'treatment' refers to any changes made to the rubbers after it's ITTF approval state. The manufacturer makes the rubber like it had been ITTF approved, and any modifications to the rubber after this are not allowed.


If I understand correctly, the rule was modified to avoid having to mention ITTF approval in section 2 (laws of the game), to avoid circular dependency (legal if approved, approved if legal). My point is that it still does, indirectly.


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 18:55 
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Thanks for replying Adham it is a unique opportunity to ask such direct questions to the ITTF president :)
adham wrote:
You are correct.

There is a nuance now with the two texts, one in Chapter 2 (Laws of TT) and one in Chapter 3 (International Competitions). In Chapter 2 the TT rule 2.4 says that you cannot alter the racket covering from how it came out of the factory, but you may not need to have the ITTF's logo on the rubber if this is not required in your area where you play. In Chapter 3, it's the same rule, but in addition you cannot use the racket cover in an ITTF event if it does not have the ITTf logo (authorization). This gives further flexibility for national associations to enforce the ITTF authorization (most do) or not. It does not change anything at ITTF events.


I see, so the interpretation of the word treatment is taken to mean general post-factory treatment even though ITTF approval is not specified. Maybe it could be clarified a bit in the law, but I personally think it was enough to move it to section 3.


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2009, 23:12 
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jaggy_01: It has been cleared up earlier here is an example of why it is in 2 and 3.

By having it in section 2 as they do it allows bodies such as the etta who apply the laws of table tennis to local league events to still preclude the use of speed glue, boosters, tuners without requiring an ITTF stamp (they apply rule 2 not section 3 in these events). This restored the status quo to as it has been in english local leagues for many years with only the additional point on altering charecteristics after the factory.

When bodies apply section 3 (as etta does for british league and certain tournaments) this goes further stopping frictionless rubbers, non ITTF stamped rubbers and the speed glue, tuners bossters etc as section 2 does anyway:

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2009, 08:35 
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adham wrote:
...This gives further flexibility for national associations to enforce the ITTF authorization (most do) or not.


As far as I know, every national association has always had absolute flexibility regarding ITTF rules. It has always been entirely up to them, to what extent they enforce ITTF rules on their national level.

Hence no rule change was necessary to give national associations "further flexibility", because they already had 100% of it.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 09:12 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
...This gives further flexibility for national associations to enforce the ITTF authorization (most do) or not.


As far as I know, every national association has always had absolute flexibility regarding ITTF rules. It has always been entirely up to them, to what extent they enforce ITTF rules on their national level.

Hence no rule change was necessary to give national associations "further flexibility", because they already had 100% of it.


You are right. Although this may have been obvious to you and me, it was not obvious to many others. Now it is clear.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 09:36 
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adham wrote:
Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
...This gives further flexibility for national associations to enforce the ITTF authorization (most do) or not.

As far as I know, every national association has always had absolute flexibility regarding ITTF rules. It has always been entirely up to them, to what extent they enforce ITTF rules on their national level.

Hence no rule change was necessary to give national associations "further flexibility", because they already had 100% of it.

You are right. Although this may have been obvious to you and me, it was not obvious to many others. Now it is clear.

It's good in the sense that now associations don't have to break from the official "Laws of Table Tennis" to allow low friction rubbers. Hopefully England and Sweden are just the start of a larger movement to allow all legal rubbers.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 10:15 
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adham wrote:
Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
...This gives further flexibility for national associations to enforce the ITTF authorization (most do) or not.


As far as I know, every national association has always had absolute flexibility regarding ITTF rules. It has always been entirely up to them, to what extent they enforce ITTF rules on their national level.

Hence no rule change was necessary to give national associations "further flexibility", because they already had 100% of it.


You are right. Although this may have been obvious to you and me, it was not obvious to many others. Now it is clear.


I wonder which national associations belong to these "many others", who did not understand the simplest basic thing about ITTF rules: on their national level only their national rules are valid, not the ITTF rules.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 10:31 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
It's good in the sense that now associations don't have to break from the official "Laws of Table Tennis" to allow low friction rubbers. Hopefully England and Sweden are just the start of a larger movement to allow all legal rubbers.


In the official "Laws of Table Tennis" you will not find a word about friction. Only in the Technical Leaflet 4.

In my opinion low friction rubbers are still legal, because they were illegally banned by the Board of Directors.

If I am right about that, no larger movement to allow low friction rubbers is necessary. Another option is this: if a player were disqualified at an ITTF event because of frictionless pimples and sued ITTF, I think he would win. I mean, if he played with a former legal rubber, like Super Block.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 11:09 
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Smartguy wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
It's good in the sense that now associations don't have to break from the official "Laws of Table Tennis" to allow low friction rubbers. Hopefully England and Sweden are just the start of a larger movement to allow all legal rubbers.

In the official "Laws of Table Tennis" you will not find a word about friction. Only in the Technical Leaflet 4.

In my opinion low friction rubbers are still legal, because they were illegally banned by the Board of Directors.

If I am right about that, no larger movement to allow low friction rubbers is necessary. Another option is this: if a player were disqualified at an ITTF event because of frictionless pimples and sued ITTF, I think he would win. I mean, if he played with a former legal rubber, like Super Block.

Yes, but the official "Laws of Table Tennis" previously said all rubbers must be "authorised by the ITTF." This is no longer a requirement. The new rule is simply:

2.4.7 The racket covering should shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.

Of course, I agree with you that minimum friction rule is dubious, misguided and should be abandoned immediately for the good of the sport as a whole.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 11:49 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Yes, but the official "Laws of Table Tennis" previously said all rubbers must be "authorised by the ITTF." This is no longer a requirement. The new rule is simply:

2.4.7 The racket covering should shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.

Of course, I agree with you that minimum friction rule is dubious, misguided and should be abandoned immediately for the good of the sport as a whole.


I think, we should differentiate between two things:

a. what does it mean on the national level (imho nothing has changed, national associations generally may do what they want on the national level) and if so

b. why the rule was changed.

I have not analysed it properly yet. Some people criticised the old version. They pointed out, that the requirement "The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF..." was contradictory, because ITTF authorised only top sheet, not the whole covering. Hence applying tuner to the sponge could be seen as legal.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2009, 12:12 
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Smartguy wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
Yes, but the official "Laws of Table Tennis" previously said all rubbers must be "authorised by the ITTF." This is no longer a requirement. The new rule is simply:

2.4.7 The racket covering should shall be used without any physical, chemical or other treatment.

Of course, I agree with you that minimum friction rule is dubious, misguided and should be abandoned immediately for the good of the sport as a whole.


I think, we should differentiate between two things:

a. what does it mean on the national level (imho nothing has changed, national associations generally may do what they want on the national level) and if so

b. why the rule was changed.

I have not analysed it properly yet. Some people criticised the old version. They pointed out, that the requirement "The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF..." was contradictory, because ITTF authorised only top sheet, not the whole covering. Hence applying tuner to the sponge could be seen as legal.

Sure the national associations can do what they want, but it is difficult to justify going against the official laws of table tennis.

I believe the English TT Assn (which goes by the official laws -- as all national associations should) wanted the part about "ITTF authorised" to be removed from "the laws" to eliminate confusion over whether frictionless rubbers were allowed in play under ETTA jurisdiction (frictionless is allowed in England, but the anti-frictionless lobby used the "ITTF authorised" bit as an argument against). Now it is clear. Other associations should follow the lead of England and Sweden.

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