OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I just realised, if you chop like normal but on a serve, you are already a bit away from the table. Meaning easier to get next loop.

I'm having a very good season this year. I probably will rise two grades this year in my league and I'm starting to beat +-2300 USATT players in training regularly. I even train regularly against a player who plays in the second highest league in the country and I don't have difficulties keeping his topspin balls on the table, be it FH or BH (this guy has an superb touch and superb loops).

In competition I beat everyone who comes in my way (material players, loopers, chiselers...). However, I'm struggling against one kind of player: 3rd ball loopkillers. I'm finding this is a tactic used more and more by young players (+-20 years and younger). I never/rarely encounter this type of game in my age level (+-30) or older players. Not even among the higher graded player I train with.

So, what do they do? They serve (some serve normally, others serve with less spin) and cream the next ball (or wait for a later ball played long with the pips). My returns are low, long and are mostly placed in an inconvenient place (BH, crossover point or far FH). That does not seem to bother them very much. They cream it to a very inconvenient place with their hyperboosted-in-factory rubbers and if the ball comes back, they smack the return (thse balls often still contain a lot of backspin, but are short and high).

Now I'm breaking my head over these kind of players, because if you see their player's card (the card mentioning all wins and defeats of the current season), you see most of them don't even will get a higher grade next season or they'll even receive a lower one. These players are also very keen to win against me, probably because they know I'm doing so well. F****** !

Anyway, I'm having four solutions to overcome these kind of players. These are:

1) Better placement: probably shorter and sometimes higher when deep to let them miss their loopkill. If they get it on the table, my return must be a lot deeper. Still it's a risky game, because I don't find any place on the table safe for these kind of players and I'm always under great pressure.

2) Learning to push backspin with my P1-R against their no-spin shots or even pushes: now I don't know if this can be done and if it can be done, will it be an effective method to prevent their loopkill? I read Joo uses a thicker sponged P1-R because he has better control in pushing shots (creating more of his own spin?) and I read a review on Noppentest of Fab (great review, btw ) stating you can create moderate backspin on pushes with the thick P1-R.

3) Switching to SPs: these will cover the whole weakness, but this will be a whole new learning curve. I'm also afraid SPs can't create the heavy backspin I'm currently producing and will have (a whole lot?) less control.

4) Quitting the game: Yes, even when having the prospect of rising two levels next season, I don't find this type of TT appealing anymore. I find the current plastic ball makes this type of game a lot easier for that kind of players. With the celluloid ball you had spin to work with and unpleasant ball flights they had to deal with. These two features have diminished a whole lot since the introduction of the plastic ball.

I'm wondering how the pro's dealt with these kind of players (if they ever did). You don't see that kind of game very often, if at all, at the top level. So pro defenders have to have a solution to deal with these kind of stupid games.

Any thoughts? Oh yes, I'm a left-handed defender.

You can give a high level player the longest lowest shot with the most spin you could possibly muster and if they are ready for it, they are not going to miss.

So the only strategy here is make them not be ready. People train to be mentally ready for the ball to land in any location however you can never 100% succeed this...and your body always is either cheating to one side and if your return is good they won't have time to kill it.

So watch them and play where they aren't. I know this seems rudimentary and basic but this players train like this as much as you train your defense if not more. So even your best return (being defensive in nature) will most likely be looped efffectively, but it's that extra step or though that you make them have that will slow it enough to not kill it past you.

...

Rant over. Haha

I don't know if this is helpful or not but there are a zillion videos of Chtchetinine around now. How does he deal with it? Can't you do the same?

And while Chtchetinine can deal with it to some degree what is his world ranking? Point-there are some players who can eat a defender for lunch, no matter what strategy is employed!

I'm not talking about the regular third-ball attackers. Those are easy enough to deal with for defenders. I'm talking about those few players Lorre described in the initial post in this thread who have mastered this kind of crazy third-ball loop-kill, usually involving a big forehand and boosted Chinese rubbers. I'm very familiar with the experience he describes. I play well against both attackers and defenders at my club and elsewhere, but there's this one guy who's not nearly as good as some of the players I regularly beat but who uses long fast low-spin/no-spin serves at my pips and then tries to finish the point with a loop-kill with the boosted Hurricane on his forehand. I try varying placement and spin on returns, but he moves very well and just hits through spin. (I have the most success floating long, high balls deep into his backhand corner.) If I can return this third-ball shot, I can outplay him in many of our rallies, but he still wins way too many points with this kind of third-ball loop-kill. Now, if I were Chtchetinine, I'd be able to chop those attacks back much more often than I can, but alas, Chtchetinine is Chtchetinine, and I'm me.

Thanks for the shout out:)!

I do have a comment about the short return. Especially with pips the short side swipe return is amazing to change things up and often leads to an easy return.....however....if you intend to start a chopping rally? Short is not always the best option. Especially if these players are 3rd ball killers....that usually means they are really good with their short game as well...(incoming flip kills)

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

No, the short side swipe is great if you intend to try to attack to start the rally, but if you intend to chop, short ball will just allow them to control the angles and you will eventually have to chop a long low spin ball which will lead you back to what you were trying to avoid.

side swipe is the way to go if you are setting up for an attack.

You mentioned that your returns are low and long to an uncomfortable place. This is good, but it's only the first step!

You can give a high level player the longest lowest shot with the most spin you could possibly muster and if they are ready for it, they are not going to miss.

So the only strategy here is make them not be ready. People train to be mentally ready for the ball to land in any location however you can never 100% succeed this...and your body always is either cheating to one side and if your return is good they won't have time to kill it.

So watch them and play where they aren't. I know this seems rudimentary and basic but this players train like this as much as you train your defense if not more. So even your best return (being defensive in nature) will most likely be looped efffectively, but it's that extra step or though that you make them have that will slow it enough to not kill it past you.

1. Don't ever expect a weak return from your opponent....ever. Expect the best possible power loop at all times and you will be ready for a weaker one. Continue to try to draw an error, but don't expect one. I try to apply this tactic every match no matter the skill level.

3. Even pros can't spin with p1r. I know joo uses it and says he has better pushing control, but he does not mean spin. He means the feel. The "sink in and rebound long time on your racket" feel. The reason they never twiddle to receive serves with inverted is because they know that the spin does not matter. They want the control and depth and placement that long pips allow you to have over a myriad of serves your opponent provides.

2. They train hard third ball loop kills for 10hrs a day? You must train to defend hardball loop kills 11hrs a day. (I know this is ridiculous but it's making a point lol)

3. Don't worry about the spin on p1r. You don't need it. Use the long pips ability to control all types of spin.

Last, the thing personally i struggle with the most are soft players. I love guys that blast away (up to a point). It's the soft returns I struggle with. I need pace, and can't figure out how to be comfortable against similar level guys that play with a soft touch. Hell, I even struggle with this vs. people lower than me.

Please don't ever think about quitting table tennis. I was away from our wonderful sport for 25 years. Sometimes I feel bad about that decision, but I mostly feel fortunate to have returned to table tennis, and I enjoy playing table tennis every moment.

Steven

Yeah, I see. You're right. Nevertheless it's not a bad tactic to learn. Most of the ones I encounter just use this tactic because they can't play against pips when there's spin in the game. So if I give them a side swipe to an unconfortable place on my receive, then they are the ones in defense mode and I can attack the weaker ball they'll be giving. So then they have to stop using the low spin serve/kill loop tactic, essentially forcing them to play my game.

So, if I want to start a chopping rally, I need to chop long to a place they aren't prepared for? Am I right? Can you give a real-life example?

First off, let me just say that Leatherback always gives the most thorough and best advice. His response to my classic D question has stuck with me ever since, so I really value and appreciate his opinion.

This is basic, but not easy to do at all and something I strive for daily!!! This is why the best choppers train for placement. If you look at some of Bogey's videos, he's not just chopping for chop's sake, he's aiming for targets. I hope to be that good some day, but it's a slow process. Watching Chtchetinine, he's a master of chopping and pushing to where his opponents are not. Any training suggestions for how to make this a habit would be great!.

So true and something I'm terrible at remembering. I go through my ups and downs with this. One thing that happens here even when I'm dilligent is when I expect a big return but get a drop shot last second and I'm caught out of position. Grrr...

Does this mean you think OX pips are viable? I'm not using OX at the moment, but I do have that setup, and play it still. (Shouldn't I know)

The only thing I notice is something Bogeyhunter pointed out to me, is that sponged pips with the grip are easier to use in preventing 3rd ball attacks on serve returns due to the slight spin you can put on them. With OX, I find that it's too predictable for them to read the spin and too easy for them to return, unless I attack with them, which is lower percentage. It sounds like you're saying that spin isn't importantl, and that it's almost entirely about placement.

But honestly, I need a how-to on service returns vs. various balls. Vs. under, vs. top, vs. side, vs. no-spin. Also, might be nice to delineate between OX and Sponged grippy pips for those. I'm good vs. serve when my opponents are 1700 or less with OX, and about 1900 when I used sponged P-1R. Above 2000, I feel like those guys loop everything past me no matter what I do.

Last, the thing personally i struggle with the most are soft players. I love guys that blast away (up to a point). It's the soft returns I struggle with. I need pace, and can't figure out how to be comfortable against similar level guys that play with a soft touch. Hell, I even struggle with this vs. people lower than me.

dont try to win. just try to play a beautiful game. attackers try to win.

watch your opponent. there is always more room on one side of the table. and if there isn't, push at their backhand, and if they have a crazy good backhand then push at their middle. anything too make them move even a step. more movement is better.

dont try to win. just try to play a beautiful game. attackers try to win.