OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 23 Nov 2019, 04:25


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 246 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2019, 09:03 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 736
Location: Universe
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Hi, Dear TORSTEN. Hi, Dear TORSTEN.

please be so kind as to clarify a question we now encounter oftentimes at our domestic events..

-- Would all those Butterfly rubbers of past production prior to 2014. with the older logos, still be valid for official play?

Image


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 07:18 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 19:55
Posts: 65
Location: Munich, Germany
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Unfortunately, the image does not show. Which of the Butterfly brands is it about?

But generally, if a brand still appears on the LARC list, then a rubber is still legal for ITTF, even if the logo has changed. ITTF Regulation 3.2.1.3 just requires the supplier, brand, ITTF logo and -if any- the ITTF Number to be printed on the rubber. The exact logo is not part of the LARC. See here: https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2018ITTFHandbook_v2.pdf_0.pdf

Of course such logo change should happen as rarely as possible (so that detecting fake products is not getting unnecessary difficult) and requires that no change of the rubber's properties is made. For example, if the butterfly just gets a new shape, authorization would normally be continued. (Without any guarantee regarding future decisions -I am not in charge of rubbers.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 07:22 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 19:55
Posts: 65
Location: Munich, Germany
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Torsten wrote:
Update for pictures of both ball stamps and racket coverings: They will return, because everyone amongst ITTF staff in charge agrees that it is useful.
The main reason why the pictures disappeared was, like I assumed, transition issues from the old to the new ITTF website.
The accordingly redesigned picture database is currently still worked on, and the plan is to bring it online roughly by end of January 2019.


Edit: I know it's not done yet. The usual delay issue in IT projects. No change of the decision to do it. I'll keep you posted when I know or see it's going live.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 May 2019, 05:32 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 736
Location: Universe
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Dear Torsten,
Thank you a lot for keeping us informed about ITTF EQ current activities.
Meanwhile,
-- I did found out that some China-made rubber products still using a false ITTF logo.
-- I did found out some Chinese rubber manufacturers (those entering in the ITTF LARC 2019) do keep producing and marketing oily liquids with boosting effect, which is now prohibited by ITTF T4 Regulations. Effective: 01 Jan 2018
Quote:
6. Supplier’s responsibilities
Suppliers that produce, market, sell, or are otherwise associated with illegal substances and
treatments may not apply for authorisation of any racket covering. Their equipment will not be
permitted to appear on the LARC, and may not use the ITTF logo.
I will gladly provide to you even more information, just give me a request on my PM.

Yours sincerely
Igor Novick.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2019, 07:32 
Offline
Bytes worse than his Bark
Bytes worse than his Bark
User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 12:25
Posts: 1496
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 348 times
Blade: OldNittaku Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05H max
BH: Tenergy 05 max
Off topic, but kind of connected:

Hi Torsten,

Are you aware of the tender being called for cheap devices to measure the friction of pimples out rubber as part of racket control?

Can you tell us the rationale for performing friction tests of pimples out rubber as part of racket control? What law of table tennis or international competitions justifies this?

While I am at it, do you have the location of the ITTF 2019 AGM & BoD meeting minutes?

Thanking you in advance for any and all answers.

_________________
Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2019, 12:04 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 8651
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1049 times
igorponger wrote:
-- I did found out that some China-made rubber products still using a false ITTF logo.


Hee hee... Igor wrote a letter. It's not like this is a new problem. The thing is, what can ITTF do about it? It's not exactly against the law. Even if they get the Communist Party of China Central Committee to pass a law banning the use of the ITTF logo on non-approved rubbers, good luck in getting it enforced. I can just imagine Igor writing letters (in bad machine-translated Chinese) to, say, the Shanghai Police Department complaining about Huieson rubber. :lol:

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2019, 06:59 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 736
Location: Universe
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Retriever wrote:
Off topic, but kind of connected:

Hi Torsten,

Are you aware of the tender being called for cheap devices to measure the friction of pimples out rubber as part of racket control?

Can you tell us the rationale for performing friction tests of pimples out rubber as part of racket control? What law of table tennis or international competitions justifies this?

While I am at it, do you have the location of the ITTF 2019 AGM & BoD meeting minutes?

Thanking you in advance for any and all answers.

You cant view ITTF DOCUMENTS unless you have got official status and ITTF Personal Registration ID.

Sorry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2019, 08:01 
Offline
Modern Chiseler.
Modern Chiseler.
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 11002
Location: USA
Has thanked: 463 times
Been thanked: 521 times
Blade: Grubba ALL+
FH: Reflectoid 1mm
BH: DG ox, TM ox
igorponger wrote:
You cant view ITTF DOCUMENTS unless you have got official status and ITTF Personal Registration ID.

Sorry.

This can't be true. ITTF President Wiekert promised the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency if elected. Did the ITTF lie to us (again)?

http://aroundtherings.com/site/A__59851 ... 2/Articles

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

No matter how good you are at something, there's always about a million people better than you.
Homer J. Simpson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2019, 07:39 
Offline
Bytes worse than his Bark
Bytes worse than his Bark
User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 12:25
Posts: 1496
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 348 times
Blade: OldNittaku Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05H max
BH: Tenergy 05 max
And another sort of off topic question, but is in the equipment area. Has the ITTF told Dr N to stop selling a rubber that is clearly not ITTF approved?

_________________
Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2019, 22:44 
Online
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 3921
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1038 times
Been thanked: 551 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: ?
Retriever wrote:
And another sort of off topic question, but is in the equipment area. Has the ITTF told Dr N to stop selling a rubber that is clearly not ITTF approved?


I also want to know this. Relevant and important info about this can be found here:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=36105

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on transitioning from a LP to a SP defender


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 03:28 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 19:55
Posts: 65
Location: Munich, Germany
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Sorry for being late, I am only here every now and then.

As to the tender for the friction device: I guess some of you know the glued ball triangle which was a first try to detect whether a PO rubber is post-treated and has too low friction. But that tool sorted out some rubbers which in ITTF's view were still legal, so this was not acceptable for ITTF. Therefore, the search is on for a smarter solution, and the tender is the invitation for anyone to contribute to the collection of ideas. -- With this info I do not want to interfere with the veeeeeery long discussion about what is post-treatment. ;) It's just the background of the tender and no prejudice on anything. I am not directly involved in this issue anyway.

As to the documents of propostions and resolutions of 2019, generally they are here: https://www.ittf.com/meetings-non-sport ... 2019-wttc/ , but I have to admit that I also cannot find there the document with the outcomes. Of course I know the important ones (coloured rubbers passed, yellow ball was changed into a resolution to do research and accepted as such), but one level up from the link there is the mailing address of Etsuko Enami, who is in charge of the area and may know more.

As to Dr. N, no I have not heard about any issue.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 07:29 
Offline
Bytes worse than his Bark
Bytes worse than his Bark
User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 12:25
Posts: 1496
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 348 times
Blade: OldNittaku Carbon
FH: Tenergy 05H max
BH: Tenergy 05 max
Hi Torsten,

Thank you for your reply about various things. I will ask again about the tender for friction measuring devices.

At the moment there is a minimum friction requirement for pimples out rubber that is specified in the technical leaflet regarding rubber. This only applies to rubber when it is manufactured.

There is no minimum friction specified anywhere for when rubber is used to play. Reduction of friction is a possible sign of treatment, but does equally occur simply with the passage of time. If the ITTF attempts to equate loss of friction with treatment then that is a logical fallacy and open to challenge. I am attempting to find out if there has been any changes in the laws of table tennis or the rules for international competitions that specify a minimum friction for pimples out rubber that would "legally" justify the introduction of friction tests as part of racket control at tournaments.

There is also a feeling that pimples out rubber is singled out for extra regulation (with respect to minimum friction, minimum aspect ratio etc), when there has been so-called "frictionless anti" pimples-in rubber introduced without such regulation.

_________________
Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 15:11 
Online
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 09:24
Posts: 736
Location: Universe
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Retriever wrote:
Hi Torsten,

Thank you for your reply about various things. I will ask again about the tender for friction measuring devices.

At the moment there is a minimum friction requirement for pimples out rubber that is specified in the technical leaflet regarding rubber. This only applies to rubber when it is manufactured.

There is no minimum friction specified anywhere for when rubber is used to play. Reduction of friction is a possible sign of treatment, but does equally occur simply with the passage of time. If the ITTF attempts to equate loss of friction with treatment then that is a logical fallacy and open to challenge. I am attempting to find out if there has been any changes in the laws of table tennis or the rules for international competitions that specify a minimum friction for pimples out rubber that would "legally" justify the introduction of friction tests as part of racket control at tournaments.

There is also a feeling that pimples out rubber is singled out for extra regulation (with respect to minimum friction, minimum aspect ratio etc), when there has been so-called "frictionless anti" pimples-in rubber introduced without such regulation.
Dear Sir,

Please be aware of the recent friction experiments as being conducted by an ITTF comissioned engineering laboratory in Germany, whose findings were as follows
— all the so called long pimples rubbers, in just-off-package condition, proved to have dynamic friction coefficient greater than 0.70.

We have now got a handy, portable testing device to clearly detect those low-friction pimples having CoF < 0.50, and we can now do all the friction tests right in the playing area.
Our resolvings on the low-friction pimples will be as follows
— just a slight deviations from continuity of rubber surface may be allowed under the Rule 2.4.7.1
Hence, all the low-friction pimples did get far below from their original friction by up to 20%. It is a significant loss of original traction of the pimples and can't be allowed.
As regards the so called "natural wear on the rubber", it is no good excuse for player to keep using the low-friction pimples; and moreover, the continual loss of friction all over the pimples pattern is a credible sign of an illegal treatment.

Many 'thank you' for being concerned.

Research Advisory Group, not within ITTF.


Last edited by igorponger on 12 Oct 2019, 22:46, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 17:57 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 32500
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1984 times
Been thanked: 1293 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dr N Troublemaker OX
igorponger wrote:
— just a slight deviations from continuity of rubber surface may be allowed under the Rule 2.4.7.1
Hence, all the low-friction pimples did get far below from their original friction by up to 20%. It is a significant loss of original traction of the pimples and can't be allowed.

If that's what you want, it's only fair to apply the same rule to ALL other rubbers.... if more 20% change in friction is not allowed for one type of rubber, the same should apply to ALL rubbers.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 22:22 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 15 Jan 2018, 04:47
Posts: 352
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 92 times
Blade: Grubba all+
FH: Moristo DF 1.2 :)))
BH: DG ox/Globe 979 ox
Inverted rubbers also lose friction with time, therefore, they should become illegal too ,.... Why doesn't the Ittf regulate the tuning at the factory as well ?

The easiest thing would be to ban any kind of pips, end of the story, Ittf happy,..... then, the manufacturers would do something more about this scandal in tt ....

All is about money ,.... when you touch the manufacturers' pocket, then,.. we could see real changes,...


Everything possible is being done so close to the table LP defence disappears . Extra regulation for LPS, then,.. the new ball, also harming choppers,.....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 246 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17  Next



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group