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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 18:38 
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Blade: YinHe N11
FH: KTL Pro XT
BH: RITC 563 OX
I am natural looper, top spinner, attacking style player.
Still a beginner I think.
Also EJ.

I have just transitioned to custom setups from pre-mades.
Took a while, lots of pain, winging and whining, which is all behind now.
getting exposure to all kind of players... recently to a pen holder with very inconvenient game for me.
I am currently trying KTL XT on both sides of N11, relatively tacky rubber with better control than 729 Super FX in my opinion.
Anyway, this guy spins the ball like I never seen before.
I could not read spin his serve... like at all... same fast motion and can be anything after that, top spin, under spin, side spin... fast, long ball...
We ended up two games each but I was devastated as I sometimes could not return any of his serves like 5 times in the row
One can lose confidence very quickly.
So I decided to experiment again with LP on BH, just to see what happens.
I used LPs to return his serves to BH and I can spin back everything now on my FH with KTL Pro XT with great control.
My returns put him under pressure immediately.
Enjoyed returning with LP, OMG what a relief when you don't have to think about dreaded spin....
My confidence sky rocketed and I confidently beat this guy...
But when I took my setup to other players, I have noticed that I am not that attacking anymore..
Like the way I play on BH is effecting my FH... I started chopping on FH a lot, instead of ripping the plastic apart...
It's like I cannot split my brain into BH and FH
Sucks!!!!
I just started to enjoy this setup.
Just my share
Cheers


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 20:00 
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Returning serves will never be a cake walk even as you improve in skill. Your first mistake was to switch to lp with the intention of doing that.

Deception in serves is to be expected, but focus on the moment of contact rather than what he does before or after, try to ignore the excess movements. As you play more, you can also rely on seeing how the ball bounces and flight trajectory to determine spin.

Recommend practising serves and reception with your training partners before changing equipment.


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 20:47 
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Blade: YinHe N11
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BH: RITC 563 OX
Thanks
It's same movement, I do not see any difference at all.
I only know when it hits my rubber, the the ball goes either sideways, into the net or long. Only then I know what it was. Ha-ha-ha.
LP are fun. I want to keep it longer and experiment. And it was such an easy way to handle those spinny serves.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 21:07 
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Blade: Stiga Defensive Classic
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BH: Tibhar D.TecS
The movement is usually pure theatrics. It’s better to look at the ball and where he makes the contact. You will eventually learn unless he hides the contact from you (which is cheating).


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 21:12 
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Yes, easier now, but you will be at a disadvantage when you rise a level. Personally, I love serving against long pips because I know exactly what I will get back.

Stay low, keep your eye on his racket, see the direction it is going at the precise moment it contacts the ball, ignore everything before and after. Try to take some with your forehand rubber untill you get a good percentage.


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 22:02 
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I didn't know LP players have natural progression limits.... there are no top players using LPs?
... pen hold must be confusing to me... to read the serve I mean...

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 22:14 
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Blade: Andor Ligna ALL+
FH: DHS Hurricane 8 soft max
BH: Tibhar Grass D.Tecs 0.6
As soon as people know you have LP on the BH they will not give you those difficult/spinny serves anymore but dead long balls. Then you are in trouble again.
Playing with LP is really not just as easy as you might think. You have to think about every ball.
To keep the balls low you also have to calculate spin .....

If you are a natural attacker, it's better you practise and learn how to deal with spinny serves with your normal rubber.
LP is more difficult than most think.

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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 22:44 
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Zverev wrote:
I didn't know LP players have natural progression limits.... there are no top players using LPs?
... pen hold must be confusing to me... to read the serve I mean...

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Imagine facing off against a penhold lp twiddler!


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 23:14 
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IMO you hinder your own development when you don't learn to handle all of the spins, shots, and basic strokes when learning the game. Using LP as a crutch may be helpful in the short term, but if you plan on sticking around for the long term I think you are hurting yourself...

Side note: When you are 1000 rated, and 1500 rated player with good spin variation and disguise will make you look stupid. By the time you get to 1500, you will be able to read that guy's serves. But the same 1500 player will look stupid against a 2000 rated player with good spin variation and disguise. Ditto for the 2000 against 2500. It never stops. Occasionally looking stupid on service return is just something you have to get used to...


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PostPosted: 09 Jul 2019, 23:22 
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Nothing wrong with lp and plenty of pros using them. If you are interested in a style akin to Ruwen Filus, JSH etc, by all means go for it.

However, its a long learning curve and no disrespect, but using lp to cover poor serve receive is something you might get discriminated against and definitely something that will hamper your early stage development.

Modern defense is a spectacular style. But don't use it as a crutch.


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 00:32 
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Blade: XVT Balsa Carbon 10mm all
FH: Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
BH: Globe 979 OX
Pro female players Manika Batra and Amelie Solja use Long pips. Both play a close to table pushblocker style. I doubt you will get to that high a level.

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Panda Drive / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max / Play right-handed
XVT balsa carbon 10mm / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH Globe 979 Long Pips OX / Play Left-handed shakehand
Stiga Def Wood / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH GD CC LP OX .. Play Left-handed
Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon use righthanded shakehand grip
HARDBAT / Shakehand Hock 3 ply / Friendship Dr Evil OX .. Play Right-handed


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 02:44 
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Yup. Lots of top level table tennis players (though no top-10 men at the moment) play with long pips. The difference is that, at that level, the long pips are a TOOL, not a crutch - they don't use the long pips because they can't figure out how to return serves. Serve return is a crucial skill, and has to be learned, and long pips, when used to cover up a weakness in serve return, will weaken your game overall.

Your trouble with the penholder reminds me of this one player in the group I play in, he's got some pretty effective sidespin serves. He can put topspin OR backspin on the serve, if you know what to look for it's easy to return those serves. When I return them most of the spin actually goes back, to his detriment. Like your opponent, he hasn't figured out how to play against long pips - he insists on using the same serves against long pips - this guarantees that any successful return will have the same weird spins on it, and if playing doubles, it really messes up his doubles partner. Note that I said "successful return" - he actually does manage to get long pips players to return the ball into the net or off the table, or at least a weak, high return. Your opponent hasn't figured out how to play against long pips, that's why you're beating him for now. None of our group has trouble playing against long pips any more, since most of the group actually play with it (and the penholder actually uses bare wood on the reverse of his bat - this is ten times weirder than long pips). We know the types of spin that come off long pips. There was a period when everyone was playing very tentatively, afraid to attack balls - but that only lasted for maybe 6 months.

The trouble you're having with those serves has to do with it being possible to serve topspin with an open racket. For beginners, an open racket means backspin. All it takes is a little flick of the wrist, and a change in timing, to change what looks like side-backspin to side-topspin. I used to be able to get a lot of points off players in the group this way, now it only works maybe 10 or 20% of the time, because they've gotten better at reading the serve. Players who are better than myself are correspondingly better at spin disguise - I found Brett Clarke's serves absolutely impossible to read. Lots of serves I thought were backspin flew off the end of the table, and what did turn out to be backspin had more spin on it than I had ever encountered before and ended up in the net.

So should you switch back to double inverted? Naah… try this for six months or so... :lol: Using long pips on the backhand does weaken the backhand. And you'll short-circuit your potential development of a backhand attack. You CAN attack with long pips, but it's a difficult thing to do. Another of the players here has gotten fairly good at it - it's mainly bumps and swipes, usually with a sharp angle. He can also drive high balls. BUT... he's pretty inconsistent. A lot of the fast balls off the long pips end up long, or in the net. So it's up to you in the end, of course - just be aware of the drawbacks.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2019, 23:23 
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Blade: YinHe N11
FH: KTL Pro XT
BH: RITC 563 OX
Thanks for good points.
Watched a bit this Filus Ruwen guy, interesting style.
Lots of guys in lawn tennis have this style, particular older folks with one handed backhand.
As their one handed BH drive quite often sucks, they use BH slice almost exclusively.
This style used be seen on tour as well but not anymore as BH slice does not disturb anyone anymore, even at the club level.

Anyway, I've got to try it as it entertains me.
It's not simple at all, I agree. The ball sometime pops up or travels long for no apparent reason.
Something to learn.
But the fact that I am using BH maybe 10% of the time, helps to keep results decent.
Cheers


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 02:06 
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It's not that Filus and Gionis chop on the backhand, it's that they DON'T chop on the forehand. Their forehand defensive shot is sort of a low topspin drive, though when in attack mode they will loop, and loop pretty hard. Most choppers (Joo is a good example, and there are many, many examples among the top women) will chop with both forehand and backhand (yes, they chop with both kinds of rubber), but these days they also loop.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 15:49 
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As luck would have it.. came across this this morning.



Iskandar


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