Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Well, same as with OX LP blocking... it was more effective in bygone eras. Smaller ball, more spin etc. Short pips seem to fall into the same category. Wu Yang, my favorite SP chopper of all time!! vented her frustration previously about might as well swap to being an attacker, since her game was hit so hard by the new ball. If you look at her record before the new ball (around 2015?), I don't think she ever lost a match to anyone outside of the chinese elite in competition. The Great Wall is what they used to call her. China's gatekeeper. SP spectol rubber. Since then... she is still an elite player, of course, but will lose routinely to other top players. Kind of depressing for me to watch her play these days
Having said that, she can beat pretty much anyone outside of the top 15 in the world. Whereas before she was rank #4 or #5.
If you watch her play now, the style is a bit different, in that she is very aggressive with the FH. Maybe that's just her maturing as a player and learning to harness it (the late-bloomer modern defender). But given her negative commentary about the ball, I'd have to assume it is a stylistic choice to remain competitive. She can no longer confuse and befuddle them with spins. She must do so, but the points are no longer lost outright as before. She has to draw out the 'error' which in this case is just a bad return, and punish it with a kill shot. Final result is, she needs one extra OFFENSIVE shot to put the point away. Now if that's the case... are the short pips helping her too much? I don't know... maybe the LP would give her more consistent BH chops, who knows. She rarely hits with the BH as it is.
I guess that all relates here, to the point of if you can't win outright anymore with the SP chop variations as before... is it worth giving up the ease/comfort of chopping with LP, to gain a few mis-read spin points by the opponent from SP? When all they need to do is play it safer and have less fear of the ball -- UNLESS the defender can deliver a powerful kill against these balls.
So for my style, it means why would I want to back off and chop... giving up some advantages, when it's all going to be reliant on the FH kill anyway? Basically, whether I play at the table blocking or away and chopping - either style, without the FH kills, is pretty impotent. Even with twiddle and all that. Then for me the question becomes... where do I feel most comfortable FH killing from? At the table, or running in and looping a weak return? What setup do I like? The block or the chop? And if it's at the table, my preference would probably be to adopt the c-pen Zhou Xintong style of LP hitting/chop-blocking, only using the inverted sparingly. Breaking it down, in my eyes, the 2 styles are almost identical - aside from the tactical changes and stuff comparing chop vs blocking. But mindset and final result are the same in my case.
For the rubber I went with tenergy 64 -- maybe after it wears out I will buy the dignics to test.
Wu Yang seems to lean more towards classic defense. I think the style in general took a bomb to the gut with the new ball. Same happened to Shiono if I remember correctly. It just keeps getting harder to win points with defense alone with each decade it seems at the top level. So I'm saying I think it has more to do with her style than short pips themselves. My opinion anyway. I think Hou Yingchau shows variations in chop are still effective, bjt chopping in general, no matter what you use, would appear to be less effective now.
Joo said in an interview if he was coming up now he'd use short pips. Something along those lines anyway. Reason being because of the reduced backspin with long pips with new ball, so variation of short pips would be more effective. I'm not so sure that's actually true at this time, but no doubt long pips have been weakened. Chopping in general. I can see the difference just watching choppers in the 00s and then watching them now. More backspin back then, and forced more errors.
I don't think this applies as much at amateur level though. I took a break from tt before the new ball was properly introduced and by the time I came back, it had been too long to notice a difference. I'd have to do a direct A/B comparison. I was still able to float and chop well etc. And of course I never used long pips with the previous ball, so I missed out on the fun times apparently
.
Thats a good way of putting it, where/how do you feel most comfortable killing the point with your forehand. I think for defenders and blockers now, that's kind of a key question. I feel short pips and long pips are a little different in how they setup the forehand kill. With blocking, makes more sense to use long pips or go Waldner with double inverted.
I think Hou is a pretty good example of how to be a chopper with short pips, as in not just how he uses the pips but how he uses his forehand with inverted too. Think Chen a good example of how long pips setup the forehand if you're eager to pounce at every opportunity.
The more I play with my setup, the more I appreciate the balance between the two rubbers, P1r and Hurricane. My sparring partner said thst to me as well, saying he thinks I shouldn't change because it's an effective partnership between the rubbers. Feel my game is becoming more simple with it, but perhaps in a good way. For all my issues with long pips I will say chopping has never been more fun than with P1r right now. And it's effective too. So it looks like a win win there.
No, horizontal is not going to have any deception with sponge that thick. It's a workhorse kind of rubber - get out what you put in. I use it on OX for chopping, but also at the table hitting. It sends back dead balls or some with very slight reversal. It wouldn't give anyone trouble with the passive block, unless they suck against no spins. I use it for more aggressive hitting, where you combine the knuckle effect with speed.
fl3, curl p4, and horizontal are right at the line when it comes to short vs long pips. All of them are grippy enough to where you must use actual strokes, not much different from short pips other than a bit more forgiving since they impart less spin.
From the sound of how your style is shaping up, I would lean more toward the security side of things. I would have to imagine overall, you'd win more from the consistency + FH finish than you would from drawing out the occasional error from a slightly more frictioned long pip - at least not enough to outweigh the misses. You can change the spin some, but against knowledgeable players I think that aspect of p4 or H55 is a pretty moot point and you'd be relying on consistency anyway. Only with a guaranteed slightly heavier back spin ball, regardless of incoming spin.
For my tournament action... had some good, some good but more importantly -- many excuses!
I started off doing the chopping + looping game, since my first events were in doubles. Those went well enough, and we beat all of the teams in our division for 1st place. After that the singles started, where I chose to use the OX LP blocking setup in order to give myself a real test with it. Games started out well enough! I beat the top seed a few games, but he adjusted soon thereafter and proved why he was the top! Thrashing me quite heavily in the last closing games. I felt good, knowing that I could compete against them on that level even if it was rather short lived... I played by going HAM with the forehand, and probably won around 70% of my points with a FH finish. The pips were just for consistency and an error now and then. I didn't feel confident in attacking with them yet (regretfully in hindsight), so it was a purely passive side. During the last game of my ass wooping, I decided to play as a chopper just for the hell of it. Seemed I did pretty well there also, at least not any worse. Later on I played an extremely good dynamo of a player from vietnam. Using the block style against him, he just massacred me. From either side. WAM BAM. That little demon treated my pips like a candy-filled pinata and just beat the crap out of them/me. However, I kept joking with him so over the final games he lightened up (after asserting his dominance
) and we had fun doing long rallies with me chopping or lobbing. His shots were so awesome! First time he sent a ball wizzing past me on a perfect angle, I called it outright luck. Then... he did it again to the opposite side right after! Luck again! But sure enough, his next one WAM! Same thing happened. Over and over. I told him if it weren't for those 10 lucky shots he hit on me in that game, I would have easily destroyed him
That final game gave me the notion to play the remaining games as a chopper against the other players. I continued doing so, leveraging the FH quite heavily and winning the majority of my points with the loop. Chopping away from the table and running in to land a killer. Problem soon became... my back began flaring up and essentially prevented me from attacking or moving a whole lot. That was the story of my other matches. I decided to play the first game with as much intensity as I could, more just to prove to myself that I could beat them with my actual skill set - physical fatigue aside. Those were easily won, usually around 11-3 in my favor. But after that I was not able to perform very well and lost a number of them in the 5th, using pretty much 0 attacks. Or a half hearted swing, being too conscious of my spine, and hitting it straight into the net. My last match was against a much lower rated player... that I lost to! Could not move at all, just stood flatfooted at the table and to his credit he saw I wasn't attacking so played very safe and took no risks. I was scheduled for more matches in that round, but opted to leave early not wanting to really injure my back. I think it would've been smart to leave 1 match earlier than I did, but oh well.
Overall I felt great about the tournament, even with the losses. The games reinforced in me that I could compete and win against the "higher rated" players - though it also came with some depressing thoughts... that I can win with the skills I have, yet I'm not able to maintain those skills long enough to actually play hard and beat down the competition throughout the events. So unless I play 1 set showdowns! Or limit my events to maybe 1 per day (though seems like a waste of a drive to me
), I'm not sure the current style is sustainable and that I might be better off focusing on one that I can scale with, all things considered. I'll have to do some testing to confirm, because my mid-back issue didn't arise until I started chopping AND looping. The right hip problem wasn't too present during my block/loop games so perhaps my body is acclimating itself to that stress. I don't mind the muscular soreness at all, it's the herniated disc area being re-injured that worries me... meaning I might have to give up the chop game for good and cement myself at the table as a blocking/looper. An annoying thought, since I've spent the better part of the last 2 years training chopping almost exclusively. I think I play better as the attacking chopper currently, from the angles to the distance and everything that goes with it - other than the spine issue, and perhaps not being able to scale as high against those electrifying players like the vietnamese guy I played.
**reflecting back again, will hold off judgement on any particular style until actually testing out the moves and trying to pinpoint which ones cause the flare ups