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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 14:54 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
I respect your opinion that ALL rules, regardless of importance, should be implemented strictly to the letter.


I have never written here about "ALL rules". The subject is "The Laws Of Table Tennis" from the "ITTF Handbook". As for "importance", I have never referred to this notion regarding The Laws Of Table Tennis.

I'm pretty sure, that legally speaking, there is no such thing as "less important rule". Perhaps, you really need to understand that.

I am also sure, that the idea, that if a player follows certain rule, he may be allowed to break another one, is legally speaking absolutely wrong. I'm really sorry, if you don't understand that.

adham wrote:
You wish to see rules as "Legal" or "Illegal". To you 15.99 cm is illegal.


Have I ever talked here about an "illegal" rule? I don't think you really mean that.

As for 15.99 cm being illegal: yes, of course, less than 16 cm is illegal according to 2.06.02.

You have to see the difference between these two dimensions: 1)legality and 2)how certain values can be measured or evaluated.

Again, if an umpire can clearly see the ball being thrown up less than 16 cm, he must give the point to the opponent. The Laws Of Table Tennis are absolutely clear about it: "2.06.06.03 Whenever there is a clear failure to comply with the requirements for a good service, no warning shall be given and the receiver shall score a point.". The same applies to "near vertically".

Otherwise the umpire himself would act illegally. Or the referee, if he gave him such instructions.

And please pay close attention to the wording: "the requirements", not "some important requirements".


adham wrote:
As ITTF President I never interfere with anything to do with implementation of the Rules.


It is more important to me, whether you may interfere with implementation of the Rules. Of course, you have first to understand, that the current practice is in certain aspects illegal. Than you have to understand, that this illegal practice can be clearly seen match for match on TV.

Just imagine: a coach explains to his kids the service rule according to The Laws Of Table Tennis. And the next day they watch an ITTF Tournament on TV, where they can see the service rule clearly broken and players getting away with it. They can easily come to conclusion, that cheating works and is acceptable even on the high level.

Don't you think, it would be really bad for these kids and for Table Tennis?


Thank you for your views, which are much appreciated; and I repeat, I fully respect your views. I described to you the current practice. I also understand that you do not agree with the current practice.

Now, let me ask you one question, that I hope will illustrate my point and the common practice, as well as the notion of "intent" and conventional wisdom all in one. here is the exact wording of the rule:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

Here is the question: If the player throws the ball "exactly" vertically upwards, and you were the umpire, would you fault the player?

According to your statements this player would lose the point. The rule states that the player should project the ball "nearly vertical", therefore, projecting "exactly vertically" would be a fault according to you. Is that right?

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 14:58 
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adham wrote:
Here is the question: If the player throws the ball "exactly" vertically upwards, and you were the umpire, would you fault the player?

According to your statements this player would lose the point. The rule states that the player should project the ball "nearly vertical", therefore, projecting "exactly vertically" would be a fault according to you. Is that right?

Touché

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:04 
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I totally agree with Adham here...we've got to be a little practical here... I think this question has well and truly been flogged to death Smartguy, don't you? We can probably spend our time on much more constructive and enjoyable discussion here.

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:12 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
Here is the question: If the player throws the ball "exactly" vertically upwards, and you were the umpire, would you fault the player?

According to your statements this player would lose the point. The rule states that the player should project the ball "nearly vertical", therefore, projecting "exactly vertically" would be a fault according to you. Is that right?

Touché


Double Touché. And why does the rule say 'nearly vertical' and not just 'vertical'? I believe it is written for human umpires with human judgments. Hence there must be some room for inconsistency because different umpires/human will judge differently. In addition, the rule also admits that human players themselves would never ever be able to toss a perfectly vertical ball. NEVER. Even the rise of 16cm. Without using a ruler, I would be most interested if one were to ask someone to draw a line of that length, I wonder how many will get it exactly right? At the end of the day, commonsense must prevail. A fault should be called when a toss is so obviously illegal. Both players at the both ends will never be able to toss a perfectly legal ball. And that is being human.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:26 
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adham wrote:
Thank you for your views, which are much appreciated; and I repeat, I fully respect your views. I described to you the current practice. I also understand that you do not agree with the current practice.

Now, let me ask you one question, that I hope will illustrate my point and the common practice, as well as the notion of "intent" and conventional wisdom all in one. here is the exact wording of the rule:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

Here is the question: If the player throws the ball "exactly" vertically upwards, and you were the umpire, would you fault the player?

According to your statements this player would lose the point. The rule states that the player should project the ball "nearly vertical", therefore, projecting "exactly vertically" would be a fault according to you. Is that right?


Adham, your question is good, and I'm going to answer it.

By the way, your own answer to your own question is funny, but I'm afraid wrong.

But you surely wouldn't like it, if I answer your question just with another question, would you?

I mean, before you asked me your question, I had asked you this:

"Just imagine: a coach explains to his kids the service rule according to The Laws Of Table Tennis. And the next day they watch an ITTF Tournament on TV, where they can see the service rule clearly broken and players getting away with it. They can easily come to conclusion, that cheating works and is acceptable even on the high level.

Don't you think, it would be really bad for these kids and for Table Tennis?"


I think, it would be a really good thing, if we answer our questions in natural chronological order.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:33 
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fattchoi wrote:
A fault should be called when a toss is so obviously illegal. Both players at the both ends will never be able to toss a perfectly legal ball. And that is being human.

Cheers.


You are absolutely right. But the problem is, that "obviously illegal" tosses are not called fault.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:48 
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Mr. Beringer,
You will be only well-advised to stop promulgating your any ideas of the "safe" and "legal" boosting.
In fact, applying the boosting chemicals onto the sponge is a very precarious procedure to give players heaps of troubles in official events played with racket control.

You must know over 50% of players are looking to purchase a maximum sponge of 2.1 -2.3mm thick.
Whichever booster is then applyed on the sponge, it will get swelled pretty much and the rubber is most likely to come illegal (> 4.o mm).
In no way could players control the end results of the bosting and they will always have very bad time at the close racket inspections by an Umpire/Referee.

Ever Yours
Igor NOVICK
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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 15:51 
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Smartguy wrote:
fattchoi wrote:
A fault should be called when a toss is so obviously illegal. Both players at the both ends will never be able to toss a perfectly legal ball. And that is being human.

Cheers.


You are absolutely right. But the problem is, that "obviously illegal" tosses are not called fault.


But then again, obvious to who? I am sure if you are the umpire, a fault will be called if it is obvious to you. As I said, we are dealing with all things being human. What is obvious to one may not be obvious to another. It is like one man's food is another man's poison. I love peanuts but the next guy who eat it could well die from it. Yet, is peanut an obvious poison?

Anyway, as Haggisv above has said, we have flogged this toss rule to death already. I suggest we just move on.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 16:05 
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fattchoi wrote:
But then again, obvious to who? I am sure if you are the umpire, a fault will be called if it is obvious to you. As I said, we are dealing with all things being human. What is obvious to one may not be obvious to another. It is like one man's food is another man's poison. I love peanuts but the next guy who eat it could well die from it. Yet, is peanut an obvious poison?

Cheers.


You are right again, of course, obvious to umpire. And in some cases "what is obvious to one may not be obvious to another".

But I'm afraid, that we can very often see on videos obviously illegal services, that umpires don't call fault. That's the problem.

And I am pretty sure, that they are instructed to behave this way, rather than they can not identify illegal service.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 16:38 
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haggisv wrote:
I totally agree with Adham here...we've got to be a little practical here... I think this question has well and truly been flogged to death Smartguy, don't you? We can probably spend our time on much more constructive and enjoyable discussion here.


Hi haggisv,

I'm just a guest here at your site, and if you mean, that the service rule discussion should stop - OK, no problem.

I have already promised to answer Adam's question after he has answered mine, and you can hardly tell him he should stop, so I hope you can tolerate two more posts.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 16:56 
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Smartguy wrote:
And I am pretty sure, that they are instructed to behave this way, rather than they can not identify illegal service.


I wasn't going to reply anymore with regard to this matter but feel compel to advise against such allegation if you have no proof. It is not fair because if such instructions has not been issued as you claimed, then you would have incurred a grave injustice against people who are probably doing their best to ensure the betterment of the game is preserved. So far, I do find your argument valid and pertinent which is I why I decided to engage myself out of the interest to find a good conclusion to this matter. So please refrain from throwing any undue accusation and let's just keep to good logical and amiable discussion on all matters.

And please also remember that Adham need NOT bother with any of us. He works as a volunteer for the ITTF and has a lot of things to do in his own private life. I find us at OOAK very privileged that he seems to make an effort to grace our forum daily and reply to as many of us as possible. So it would be good for us all in return to debate/argue/discuss with him in a relevant manner, which you have been doing, but at the same time need to understand when to conclude a matter especially when there is no easy solution to the matter discussed. At the end of the day, I believe Adham does take on board what we said and would dearly love to resolve all our issues for us. But then, he too is human and there is really only so much he can do and only so much time he can spend debating stuff with us.

In conclusion, please understand that some time, certain thing can seem so simple and easy to fix but when it comes to it, one could well find that it is not as simple as it seem after all. Especially when dealing with all things human. Take this personal experience for example. In my clubs there are 5 grades, namely A B C D & E. The rule is during competition, Grade A must give handicap of 2 points to B, and 4 points to C and so on. I am being put in Grade C. I was then asked to play a player from Group A which means he has to give me 4 points handicap. He kicked up such a fuss and believe that I should be in Group B. I truly am flattered that he thinks I qualify for Grade B. Anyway, he kicked up such a fuss. So what is the best way to fix it? Rules of the club means he must give me 4 points handicap. Period. But I want to fix it and it is very simple as far as I am concerned. I told the guy since he thinks so highly of me, then I would gladly accept just 2 points handicap as he so wish. And the organiser seeing I am willing, agrees. Problem solved, right??? You will be shock that it is not so simple because this player now refused to accept my offer. BUT he still kick and scream about it. So there, what that I thought can be so easily fixed was NOT fixed at all. And as it turns out, even though I was given 4 points handicap, he thrashed me mercilessly. Which really means, my grading was correct after all. And even after that, he was still grumbling that it is rubbish that I am in Grade C. So there, that is being human and it is erratic :shock: And this is just between me and another player trying to fix either a 2 or 4 points issue. So imagine how much harder it would really be to fix the tossing issue for the whole TT community. So many human beings involved :P :lol: :lol:

Cheers.

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 17:47 
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fattchoi wrote:
Smartguy wrote:
And I am pretty sure, that they are instructed to behave this way, rather than they can not identify illegal service.


I wasn't going to reply anymore with regard to this matter but feel compel to advise against such allegation if you have no proof. It is not fair because if such instructions has not been issued as you claimed, then you would have incurred a grave injustice against people who are probably doing their best to ensure the betterment of the game is preserved.


When I say "I am pretty sure, that..." I mean "I have a strong feeling, that..., and the reason for it is the information I have". English is my second language, so it wasn't meant to be an allegation.

The reason for this strong feeling is what I see on TV and videos for years and Adham's words about "current practice" in this thread. And, of course, "The Laws Of Table Tennis" of ITTF. Also "The Handbook for Match Officials".

I know, Adham works as a volunteer for the ITTF. In the country where I live there are a lot of players and a lot of people work as volunteers for Table Tennis. The fact, that they are not paid doesn't mean they have no responsibilities.

Of course, some players are difficult to deal with. And some players are willing to cheat. Should they be allowed to do so? I hope no.

In case of the service rule IMHO, so many players break it (not only vertical toss), that I see a serious problem here. And I am pretty sure, this problem can be fixed.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 19:06 
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adham wrote:
Jasper wrote:
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
adham wrote:
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
Actually Adham,
[...]
I will get back to you, but this may take some time.


I like your adaptation on my idea. It would certainly stop any arguments about serve height, direction and spin in its tracks! I think such a device shouldn't be all that difficult to construct, and not that hard to retro fit to a table either. Would solve a lot of issues, don't you think?



I strongly disagree with this measure. Mechanically enforcing the rules because players refuse to follow them? If this gets real, I'm quitting the game...


Take it easy, don't get excited. These are all just ideas.

[...]

Come on, tell us your own crazy idea. I'm sure you have one.


Adham,

I'm not getting too excited or angry about it. I just wanted to express my opinion on this idea. I have few crazy ideas about table tennis. When I have one, I'll be sure to share it with the forum crowd. But I really think this idea is bad, and I would quit the game if it ever became a reality.

I'm not mad at anyone, although people do tend to read aggression in my posts from time to time (I should write more smilies. :wink: :) :D :roll: ) I'm all about reasonable discussion, and therefore like the way this thread is progressing (except for the nitpicking about the exact wording of the rules, that's a waste of forum space IMO).

Maybe we should open some new threads about the specific subjects, because this one is getting pretty crowded.

Cheers,

Jasper

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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2008, 21:37 
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Smartguy wrote:
When I say "I am pretty sure, that..." I mean "I have a strong feeling, that..., and the reason for it is the information I have". English is my second language, so it wasn't meant to be an allegation.

The reason for this strong feeling is what I see on TV and videos for years and Adham's words about "current practice" in this thread. And, of course, "The Laws Of Table Tennis" of ITTF. Also "The Handbook for Match Officials".

I know, Adham works as a volunteer for the ITTF. In the country where I live there are a lot of players and a lot of people work as volunteers for Table Tennis. The fact, that they are not paid doesn't mean they have no responsibilities.

Of course, some players are difficult to deal with. And some players are willing to cheat. Should they be allowed to do so? I hope no.

In case of the service rule IMHO, so many players break it (not only vertical toss), that I see a serious problem here. And I am pretty sure, this problem can be fixed.


Table tennis is not the only sports in which allegations of so-called "dubious umpire calls" are levelled against. Like many other sports, and as fattchoi alluded, as long as any human judgement is involved (height of ball toss etc), there will never be a utopian situation. I'm not suggesting that you think it should be the case in TT, and I take your point that improvements can be made.

In that context, perhaps it is arguable that the TT rules have done too much in the sense that umpires would have to make subjective calls as to what is a technically correct 16cm ball toss, and what is "hiding" the service. Let's revert back to the days when there were no such rules, then all forms of service are technically correct.

I'm not sure what your level of exposure is to other sports, but I can tell you that, notwithstanding the ongoing saga in regards to equipment rules, TT is relatively free from dubious allegations. 8) I certainly don't blame you for feeling frustration if you were ever in a position when you'd lost a point due to a bad call. I'm certain the other way has happened for your opponents too. It balances out in the end! :lol:

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 00:09 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
Thank you for your views, which are much appreciated; and I repeat, I fully respect your views. I described to you the current practice. I also understand that you do not agree with the current practice.

Now, let me ask you one question, that I hope will illustrate my point and the common practice, as well as the notion of "intent" and conventional wisdom all in one. here is the exact wording of the rule:

2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

Here is the question: If the player throws the ball "exactly" vertically upwards, and you were the umpire, would you fault the player?

According to your statements this player would lose the point. The rule states that the player should project the ball "nearly vertical", therefore, projecting "exactly vertically" would be a fault according to you. Is that right?


Adham, your question is good, and I'm going to answer it.

By the way, your own answer to your own question is funny, but I'm afraid wrong.

But you surely wouldn't like it, if I answer your question just with another question, would you?

I mean, before you asked me your question, I had asked you this:

"Just imagine: a coach explains to his kids the service rule according to The Laws Of Table Tennis. And the next day they watch an ITTF Tournament on TV, where they can see the service rule clearly broken and players getting away with it. They can easily come to conclusion, that cheating works and is acceptable even on the high level.

Don't you think, it would be really bad for these kids and for Table Tennis?"


I think, it would be a really good thing, if we answer our questions in natural chronological order.


Ok, I will. I will imagine myself in the position of a coach. By the way, I have coached since age 15 (40 years ago). I would say the following to my players and use this opportunity to teach them also about life:
- Scenario 1:
You see this service that was clearly thrown back with force, this is illegal and the player is taking unfair advantage. It's a shame that the Umpire did not call a fault. But if this happens to you, don't get upset, don't get mad, you have to accept the decision of the umpire. What we should do this afternoon, is practice how to return this type of service in order not to give your opponent an unfair advantage. But especially be careful at the end of the game when the score is clsoe. Don't be surprised if you receive such a service. Be ready. Te umpire is human and may not call it, be ready and remove this unfair advantage from your opponent.
- Scenario 2: You see this service that was called a fault by the umpire, you should never serve this way, as you can see you may lose a point immediately. let's practice this afternoon your throw on service and let's make sure it's as close to the vertical as possible.
Moral of the Story: Be adaptable, be ready and follow the rules. If others break the rule, it does happen, you should be ready for it at any time.

This is what I, as a coach, would tell the young player watching an ITTF event. This would also prepare him for the many injustices that he may encounter in other walks of life.

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