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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 01:20 
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adham wrote:
Moral of the Story: Be adaptable, be ready and follow the rules. If others break the rule, it does happen, you should be ready for it at any time.

This is what I, as a coach, would tell the young player watching an ITTF event. This would also prepare him for the many injustices that he may encounter in other walks of life.


Totally agree with this approach. If I were instructing a person on how to drive on the roads I would give very similar advice. Obey the rules of the road, but watch out for the people who might not be obeying those rules. Better to adapt to these people on the road than be injured/killed demanding your right of way. As you say, this principle applies in so many walks of life. Fortunately TT is only a game and its only points that are on the line, but what great lessons can be learned in this relatively safe environment. :D

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 04:35 
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adham wrote:
Smartguy wrote:

Just imagine: a coach explains to his kids the service rule according to The Laws Of Table Tennis. And the next day they watch an ITTF Tournament on TV, where they can see the service rule clearly broken and players getting away with it. They can easily come to conclusion, that cheating works and is acceptable even on the high level.

Don't you think, it would be really bad for these kids and for Table Tennis?


... I will imagine myself in the position of a coach. By the way, I have coached since age 15 (40 years ago). I would say the following to my players and use this opportunity to teach them also about life:
- Scenario 1:
You see this service that was clearly thrown back with force, this is illegal and the player is taking unfair advantage. It's a shame that the Umpire did not call a fault. But if this happens to you, don't get upset, don't get mad, you have to accept the decision of the umpire. What we should do this afternoon, is practice how to return this type of service in order not to give your opponent an unfair advantage. But especially be careful at the end of the game when the score is clsoe. Don't be surprised if you receive such a service. Be ready. Te umpire is human and may not call it, be ready and remove this unfair advantage from your opponent.
- Scenario 2: You see this service that was called a fault by the umpire, you should never serve this way, as you can see you may lose a point immediately. let's practice this afternoon your throw on service and let's make sure it's as close to the vertical as possible.
Moral of the Story: Be adaptable, be ready and follow the rules. If others break the rule, it does happen, you should be ready for it at any time.

This is what I, as a coach, would tell the young player watching an ITTF event. This would also prepare him for the many injustices that he may encounter in other walks of life.


Thank you, Adham. It was very interesting to read your answer, although it has little to do with my question.

Unfortunately, the kids really need to be prepared for their opponents serving clearly illegally, particularly at the ITTF events. They should learn, that it is quite possible, that umpires would tolerate illegal services, although according to The Laws Of Table Tennis umpires themselves would act in such cases illegally.

But such lessons may also produce some negative effects. Some kids may themselves chose to cheat , because they see that cheating works. Some may learn to misunderstand such a fundamental notion as "legal". Worse, with certain skills they may in future achieve a position, where they can impose their wrong ideas about legality on other people.

Now to your question about "exactly" vertical toss being illegal, because it contradicts "near vertical".

No, there is no contradiction here. The meaning of "near vertical" simply includes "exactly vertical".

This is a kind of expression whose meaning is not equal to the sum of meanings of words the expression contains. There are a lot of such expression probably in every language. If it is difficult to understand, please, tell me that and I will give you more details.


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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 06:26 
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Adham surprised me with his answer about how to deal with the case of an illegal serve as it shapes up to be the practical one. I shall further surprise this forum by saying good answer and lets leave the man alone for a bit and pick it up with another issue. As a leader of the organization, I'm sure Adham is quite accustomed to disagreement and much worse and by his presence here wants/accepts an amount of that element. I have doled out my share and have lately shifted away from that as I see more explaination as to intents and implementation of the recent changes. I agree with some and are against some, like just water cleaning. (My rubbers get so much crap on them that water just doesn't cut the mustard) Still, we get a direct line to question the ITTF pres and get some kind of answer and know something that we did not before. I'm sure it has worked at least a bit for Adham as well. The pres talking here is great that we get to see some explaination and accountability. We never saw that before and it fueled a lot of our negative opinions and posts. I get to see a new side of our forum and the ITTF each week.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 06:48 
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Der_Echte wrote:
Adham surprised me with his answer about how to deal with the case of an illegal serve as it shapes up to be the practical one. I shall further surprise this forum by saying good answer and lets leave the man alone for a bit and pick it up with another issue. As a leader of the organization, I'm sure Adham is quite accustomed to disagreement and much worse and by his presence here wants/accepts an amount of that element. I have doled out my share and have lately shifted away from that as I see more explaination as to intents and implementation of the recent changes. I agree with some and are against some, like just water cleaning. (My rubbers get so much crap on them that water just doesn't cut the mustard) Still, we get a direct line to question the ITTF pres and get some kind of answer and know something that we did not before. I'm sure it has worked at least a bit for Adham as well. The pres talking here is great that we get to see some explaination and accountability. We never saw that before and it fueled a lot of our negative opinions and posts. I get to see a new side of our forum and the ITTF each week.


Thanks, man.

Regarding cleaning your racket with water, this is just my own recommendation and what I recommend to the players I coach. But you are right, it depends where you play and how much dirt gets into your rubber. Of course you can use anything you want to clean your racket, as long as you do not alter the original characteristic of any component of the racket other than wear and tear, and removing the dirt. If you use a substance containing VOC, then you would do that "illegally" and at your own risk. You may also end up remnant VOCs and may not pass the racket control test. So you should choose a cleanser that will not alter your rubber, and that is free of VOCs. Water is the safest, but I am sure you could finds other products that meet the above requirements.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 06:51 
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Der_Echte wrote:
I shall further surprise this forum by saying good answer and lets leave the man alone for a bit and pick it up with another issue.


@ Smartguy - I beleive the issue has been brought up many times already in this thread and answered... so please no more on serve questions.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 06:52 
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Smartguy wrote:
adham wrote:
Smartguy wrote:

Just imagine: a coach explains to his kids the service rule according to The Laws Of Table Tennis. And the next day they watch an ITTF Tournament on TV, where they can see the service rule clearly broken and players getting away with it. They can easily come to conclusion, that cheating works and is acceptable even on the high level.

Don't you think, it would be really bad for these kids and for Table Tennis?


... I will imagine myself in the position of a coach. By the way, I have coached since age 15 (40 years ago). I would say the following to my players and use this opportunity to teach them also about life:
- Scenario 1:
You see this service that was clearly thrown back with force, this is illegal and the player is taking unfair advantage. It's a shame that the Umpire did not call a fault. But if this happens to you, don't get upset, don't get mad, you have to accept the decision of the umpire. What we should do this afternoon, is practice how to return this type of service in order not to give your opponent an unfair advantage. But especially be careful at the end of the game when the score is clsoe. Don't be surprised if you receive such a service. Be ready. Te umpire is human and may not call it, be ready and remove this unfair advantage from your opponent.
- Scenario 2: You see this service that was called a fault by the umpire, you should never serve this way, as you can see you may lose a point immediately. let's practice this afternoon your throw on service and let's make sure it's as close to the vertical as possible.
Moral of the Story: Be adaptable, be ready and follow the rules. If others break the rule, it does happen, you should be ready for it at any time.

This is what I, as a coach, would tell the young player watching an ITTF event. This would also prepare him for the many injustices that he may encounter in other walks of life.


Thank you, Adham. It was very interesting to read your answer, although it has little to do with my question.

Unfortunately, the kids really need to be prepared for their opponents serving clearly illegally, particularly at the ITTF events. They should learn, that it is quite possible, that umpires would tolerate illegal services, although according to The Laws Of Table Tennis umpires themselves would act in such cases illegally.

But such lessons may also produce some negative effects. Some kids may themselves chose to cheat , because they see that cheating works. Some may learn to misunderstand such a fundamental notion as "legal". Worse, with certain skills they may in future achieve a position, where they can impose their wrong ideas about legality on other people.

Now to your question about "exactly" vertical toss being illegal, because it contradicts "near vertical".

No, there is no contradiction here. The meaning of "near vertical" simply includes "exactly vertical".

This is a kind of expression whose meaning is not equal to the sum of meanings of words the expression contains. There are a lot of such expression probably in every language. If it is difficult to understand, please, tell me that and I will give you more details.


Thanks again for your comments. All I can say is that I am baffled. Let's move on to another topic since this one has occupied too much space here already. Don't get me wrong, I do respect your views, but I have nothing more to say on this subject. Sorry. Smartguy is too smart for me.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 07:08 
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Adham, what is your opinion on the Toni Hold Dämpfungsfolie product, which is a thicker than usual glue sheet that has the added effect of slowing down the rubber. I understand there are no ITTF guidelines on glue sheets. Legal or illegal?

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 07:32 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Adham, what is your opinion on the Toni Hold Dämpfungsfolie product, which is a thicker than usual glue sheet that has the added effect of slowing down the rubber. I understand there are no ITTF guidelines on glue sheets. Legal or illegal?


My understanding if I look at the rules that would relate to your question (2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4), you would have to ensure the following for the adhesive to be legal:

- the adhesive used must be even and of uniform thickness
- the total thickness of the racket covering, including the adhesive cannot exceed 4mm
- the adhesive must be VOC-free

If the adhesive you mentioned meets the above requirements (according to rules 2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4 ), then you are OK.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 07:38 
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adham wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
Adham, what is your opinion on the Toni Hold Dämpfungsfolie product, which is a thicker than usual glue sheet that has the added effect of slowing down the rubber. I understand there are no ITTF guidelines on glue sheets. Legal or illegal?


My understanding if I look at the rules that would relate to your question (2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4), you would have to ensure the following for the adhesive to be legal:

- the adhesive used must be even and of uniform thickness
- the total thickness of the racket covering, including the adhesive cannot exceed 4mm
- the adhesive must be VOC-free

If the adhesive you mentioned meets the above requirements (according to rules 2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4 ), then you are OK.

There is no issue with affecting the performance of the topsheet?

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 08:25 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
Adham, what is your opinion on the Toni Hold Dämpfungsfolie product, which is a thicker than usual glue sheet that has the added effect of slowing down the rubber. I understand there are no ITTF guidelines on glue sheets. Legal or illegal?


My understanding if I look at the rules that would relate to your question (2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4), you would have to ensure the following for the adhesive to be legal:

- the adhesive used must be even and of uniform thickness
- the total thickness of the racket covering, including the adhesive cannot exceed 4mm
- the adhesive must be VOC-free

If the adhesive you mentioned meets the above requirements (according to rules 2.4.3, 2.4.5 and 3.2.4 ), then you are OK.

There is no issue with affecting the performance of the topsheet?


No, as long as it does not actually "alter" the top sheet in any way (dome effect, stretches it, etc.). If the top sheet remains intact, then it's OK. Also make sure that the total thickness of the racket covering (all inclusive: adhesive sheet, sponge and rubber) does not exceed 4mm.
Is this adhesive sheet mainly for defending players?

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 09:01 
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adham wrote:
No, as long as it does not actually "alter" the top sheet in any way (dome effect, stretches it, etc.). If the top sheet remains intact, then it's OK. Also make sure that the total thickness of the racket covering (all inclusive: adhesive sheet, sponge and rubber) does not exceed 4mm.
Is this adhesive sheet mainly for defending players?

Yes, it's mainly used to slow down ox long pimples and some players are using it to slow down anti rubbers. A lot of players use it in Germany and there was some question over the legality.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 10:20 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
adham wrote:
No, as long as it does not actually "alter" the top sheet in any way (dome effect, stretches it, etc.). If the top sheet remains intact, then it's OK. Also make sure that the total thickness of the racket covering (all inclusive: adhesive sheet, sponge and rubber) does not exceed 4mm.
Is this adhesive sheet mainly for defending players?

Yes, it's mainly used to slow down ox long pimples and some players are using it to slow down anti rubbers. A lot of players use it in Germany and there was some question over the legality.


The only problem I can see is if it is considered NOT an adhesive, then it would be a problem, it would become an additive. But if it's main function is to act as a pressure sensitive adhesive sheet, and its thickness is not excessive (I assume it's less than 2mm or so? then it should be OK. We do not have a rule on the thickness of the adhesive. So, unless it's judged one day to be more that just an adhesive, knock yourself out and use it to your heart's content. But if you beat me with it, then you know what will happen ...

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 10:21 
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Here's a crazy idea. There was once an article written by former ITTF Equipment Chairman Rufford Harrison that revealed that sandpaper paddles were made illegal by accident. According to Harrison, there was a big BMG held in 1959 in Dortmund, Germany to establish rules for acceptable racket coverings. Pimpled rubbers were allowed both inward and outward, as well as plain wood. He said he thinks the only reason popular sandpaper surfaces were banned was because no one on the ITTF's equipment committee remembered to include them on the approved list and sandpaper was made illegal accidentally. Any chance of correcting that oversight? Also why was plain wood banned?

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 12:07 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Here's a crazy idea. There was once an article written by former ITTF Equipment Chairman Rufford Harrison that revealed that sandpaper paddles were made illegal by accident. According to Harrison, there was a big BMG held in 1959 in Dortmund, Germany to establish rules for acceptable racket coverings. Pimpled rubbers were allowed both inward and outward, as well as plain wood. He said he thinks the only reason popular sandpaper surfaces were banned was because no one on the ITTF's equipment committee remembered to include them on the approved list and sandpaper was made illegal accidentally. Any chance of correcting that oversight? Also why was plain wood banned?


I did not know that. I wonder why they did not reinstate it at the next meeting if it was recognized to be an error? Very strange. Maybe that was just the excuse given, but if the majority would have wanted to keep it, it could have been added at the next meeting. I will have to ask some Historians this question.
So, your crazy idea is to correct this error that was made almost 50 years ago? And you want "me" to do it? I agree, it is a crazy idea.
But let me tell you what I think, which will also sound crazy for sure. In my opinion we should either have no rules at all about rackets, except for some basic parameters, or we should have a uniform racket for all to use. Why? Because I think that anything in between is a problem. Either we allow everything, and then by natural elimination process, and by natural marketing forces, we will settle in any case to certain types of rackets and racket coverings. Basically the same way we treat blades. There are a few basic parameters (flat, composition, etc.), but you could have any shape and any size within those parameters. What happens? Over time a particular shape and a particular size is favoured and we have a natural process lead by the users and the market to settle on some options. Or, another option is the opposite side of the spectrum, we would pick, based on the majority, just one type of racket that all must use. Then everyone is the same. But because our sport is so varied, the first option would be my choice, but I would also accept the second option.
So, I was dreaming a bit. The current situation is that some things are allowed, others are not, players try to circumvent the rule, manufacturers try to push the limits and we end up on the edge of the rules all the time. And what is the result? The minority is angry, the majority complains, a lot of costs to monitor and to control, a lot of misunderstandings, and of course all the geniuses that come out of I don't know where and find every possible loophole, or imaginary loophole, to transform their equipment to what they really like.
But, I do not make the rules. I just ensure that they are made according to the correct process and according to our Constitution. Therefore, my idea is added to the list of crazy ideas that will go nowhere.
I must say, that some of the crazy ideas that were put forward here, unlike mine, are actually brilliant ideas, which internally in the ITTF we are looking into, with some variations of course, so we can take credit. Seriously, we are looking into some of them or some variation thereof.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 12:57 
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I think Adham, that with your explaination of the cleaning rule, that I can confidently say that I should be able to both comply with this law and clean even the worst of my rubbers. Thanks. My rubbers pick up ten times more crud than in a relatively clean TT hall.

(About using T-Hold Dampungsfolie)
Quote:
So, unless it's judged one day to be more that just an adhesive, knock yourself out and use it to your heart's content. But if you beat me with it, then you know what will happen ...

LOL. Now half the LP/Anti users on this forum will buy this and start practicing in hopes of defeating you with Dampungsfolie under the Anti or OX LP. Speedplay, add this to your shopping list and get ready :lol:, then contact And-, Silver and *JC* to get everything properly photgraphed and filmed.

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