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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 01:52 
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man_iii wrote:
Aahhh the dreaded quest to find the catapult effect rubber :-P

People dont understand that Tenergy rubber is very very different from say Andro Rasant rubber. And that this so called catapult effect is all in the mind of the player. Might as well ask for the "Trebuchet" effect :-P

Problem is not all rubbers react so violently like Tenergy when contacting a spinning and fast ball. A beginner player like me after experimenting with all manner of Tensor and tensor-like rubbers, I ended up using 729 SuperFX and 729-2 rubbers and Yasaka Rising Dragon for competition. All the Euro rubbers and Tensor rubbers are "too fast" as in they have too much "catapult" or "trebuchet" effect built in to them :lol:

If I wanted to launch the TT ball into say near-earth orbit I will go and buy all the tensor rubbers and stop playing TT :rofl: and get into rocket science :lol: :rofl:

In short, Tenergy if you want Catapult effect .... everything else if you want less catapult effect. Chinese if you hate catapult effect and prefer the "trebuchet" effect that requires you to use arm power.


Ah.. you haven't started dabbling with Seamoon yet, right? :lol:

If you read around there are people who say "catapult" is different than "bouncy". "Bouncy" is not desirable, and is what causes, for instance, popped-up pushes or long blocks, while this mysterious "catapult" effect increases the speed of loops rather than flat drives and is desirable. Me, I've tried Rasant back to back with Big Dipper and that generic Emperor Dragon you find at ttnpp for $4 and can barely tell the difference, except that Rasant "feels softer".

dan wrote:
dony71 wrote:
How is in comparison with Blitz in terms of catapult effect?


I've only played a bit with Blit'z in the past and don't really remember. However, blit'z is quite a bit more expensive putting near the European rubbers price wise.


As far as I know Blit'z IS European rubber (being made by ESN with the Tensor logo and all). It's just SOLD by Palio (as is Macro Era, Thor's and Macro Pro). Check out the price of Aeolus... :lol:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Palio-A ... 95521.html

Image

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 02:47 
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iskandar taib wrote:
If you read around there are people who say "catapult" is different than "bouncy". "Bouncy" is not desirable, and is what causes, for instance, popped-up pushes or long blocks, while this mysterious "catapult" effect increases the speed of loops rather than flat drives and is desirable. Me, I've tried Rasant back to back with Big Dipper and that generic Emperor Dragon you find at ttnpp for $4 and can barely tell the difference, except that Rasant "feels softer".


Interesting, I think I experienced tenergy to be bouncy like that with chopping backspin back, but maybe I was just not doing it right. I still think these effects are interconnected. The "bouncy" would be how much the ball bounces back from the bat, and 'catapult' would be how much of the spin is mirrored and put back on the ball I guess. I think we need more science in table tennis.


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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 25 May 2017, 08:06 
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The "spin mirrored back" part is, I think, the "throw" (i.e. how much grip the rubber has, and it's ability to generate spin and be affected by spin).

You're right about the "science" (or rather, the quantifiable tests). I am very sure they exist, but they're not in the public domain. I'll bet Butterfly has reams and reams of data. So does ESN. Without these things we can measure and put numbers on, we have this mishmash of vague terms that mean different things to different people.

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 06:16 
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How fast and spinny is ak47 compared to cj8000 and FX-S? Looks like ak47 have that usual noticably grainy surface from Palio, so I guess it's at least as grippy as cj8000?

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 21:43 
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Suggest a way we can actually measure it.. :lol: Design some instruments we can agree on.

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 21:44 
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jonasnymose wrote:
How fast and spinny is ak47 compared to cj8000 and FX-S? Looks like ak47 have that usual noticably grainy surface from Palio, so I guess it's at least as grippy as cj8000?

Sendt fra min SM-A202F med Tapatalk
AK 47 Red is the fastest rubber I ever had. Glued on my backhand on a Yinhe T11+ cPen blade, it's very fast on short strokes without body involvement. The topsheet is mat, almost like a mirror, when you touch it looks like an antispin rubber, but it has a good spin, easy to lift backspin balls

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2020, 21:58 
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Here's a short demo with AK 47 Red (RPB), I glued it this week and played a couple of hours, still I need to get used to it, it sometimes surprise me how fast I can hit without effort https://youtu.be/GQd15avWn4c

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 03:16 
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Actually - if you think about it.. CJ8000 is tacky, AK47 and FX-S are not. So "grippy" might depend on the stroke.

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 04:56 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Actually - if you think about it.. CJ8000 is tacky, AK47 and FX-S are not. So "grippy" might depend on the stroke.

Iskandar
There are still many versions of CJ8000, some of them are non-tacky

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 18:36 
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Aurelian wrote:
jonasnymose wrote:
How fast and spinny is ak47 compared to cj8000 and FX-S? Looks like ak47 have that usual noticably grainy surface from Palio, so I guess it's at least as grippy as cj8000?

Sendt fra min SM-A202F med Tapatalk
AK 47 Red is the fastest rubber I ever had. Glued on my backhand on a Yinhe T11+ cPen blade, it's very fast on short strokes without body involvement. The topsheet is mat, almost like a mirror, when you touch it looks like an antispin rubber, but it has a good spin, easy to lift backspin balls

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Yep .. it's fast.. not MXP fast, but fast indeed.. It's not too spinny, though .. above-average, in terms of control..

The surface is kind of on the matt'ish side ... but, certainly not mirror-like .... infact, I feel, if I said it's mirror-like, it would imply that its shinny/glossy..

All-in-all considering the price-to-performance ratio, I feel all the new AK-47s (Red, Blue, Yellow) are awesome.. You get an excellent bang-for-your-buck..


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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2020, 11:10 
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Aurelian wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Actually - if you think about it.. CJ8000 is tacky, AK47 and FX-S are not. So "grippy" might depend on the stroke.

Iskandar
There are still many versions of CJ8000, some of them are non-tacky

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True about the many, many, many versions (there were even three different versions of the topsheet, which is technically illegal). But I wasn't aware there were any that were non-tacky, though it's very possible indeed (which ones were they in particular?). It's also very possible that the "non-tacky sheets" were the result of bad quality control - maybe the foil for adding tack was defective.

Now, Kokutaku 868 DOES have tacky, non-tacky, and ultra-tacky versions - says right so on the packages.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2020, 17:58 
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Regarding the Palio AK47, the Blue is supposed to be the softest, Red the hardest and Yellow in between. I bought a Yellow and a Blue and the Blue was in reality significantly heavier and harder than the Yellow. Other people reported similar experiences, with sheets of Blue and Yellow being heavier than the Red.

At this point I believe that the color is just a gimmick. From what I can tell the rubber formula is the same and the weight of tge sheet is a better indicator of its hardness than the color. If a sheet of Blue is heavier than a sheet of Red, then one of them is in the wrong category.

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2020, 18:06 
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JulianTT wrote:
Regarding the Palio AK47, the Blue is supposed to be the softest, Red the hardest and Yellow in between. I bought a Yellow and a Blue and the Blue was in reality significantly heavier and harder than the Yellow. Other people reported similar experiences, with sheets of Blue and Yellow being heavier than the Red.

At this point I believe that the color is just a gimmick. From what I can tell the rubber formula is the same and the weight of tge sheet is a better indicator of its hardness than the color. If a sheet of Blue is heavier than a sheet of Red, then one of them is in the wrong category.

Julian
All of them have different degrees of hardness. So if you buy a soft version of AK47 red, it might be lighter than the harder version of AK47 blue/orange.

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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2020, 03:02 
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JulianTT wrote:
Regarding the Palio AK47, the Blue is supposed to be the softest, Red the hardest and Yellow in between. I bought a Yellow and a Blue and the Blue was in reality significantly heavier and harder than the Yellow. Other people reported similar experiences, with sheets of Blue and Yellow being heavier than the Red.


I'd beg to differ - I have, and play quite regularly with all 3 (Blue, Yellow, & Red) .. .Infact, I just finished a 2-hour play-session; today, with the Red variant... Anyway...Blue, to me, seems to be the softest sponge (I'd peg it anywhere between 37° - 40°), and Red the hardest (I'd peg it anywhere between 45° - 48°) .. Yellow, sits somewhere in between... I notice that the Yellow variant seems a tad springy, if I press on the rubbers, with my finger(s).. However, does not seems too springy, when I play with it.. I can really loop consistently with it..

In terms of speed, the Red is surely the fastest... However, I can't seem to make-out much of a speed difference, between the Blue & Yellow... This could also be due to the fact that I've glued the Yellow onto a faster blade..

In terms of weight - I find the Yellow to be the heaviest of the 3 ... Even then, it's quite light, in general .. The blue seems to be the lightest, but not by much, when compared to the Red. All-in-all, I consider the AK-47s (Blue, Yellow, Red), to be quite light, generally speaking.


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 Post subject: Re: New Palio AK 47
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2020, 03:06 
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Aurelian wrote:
All of them have different degrees of hardness. So if you buy a soft version of AK47 red, it might be lighter than the harder version of AK47 blue/orange.


Soft version of the AK47 Red ? I've never seen options for sponge hardness, in either of the Blue, Yellow, Red variant of the new AK47s... The Blue, Yellow and Red ARE, in themselves, the options for sponge hardness...


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