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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 02:05 
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From this point:
https://youtu.be/KQfhIeSpVGU?t=721

I like the split step, the knee turn, the arm back, all of that is pretty good but I don't think I like the position of the right foot. If you watch the right foot it actually comes forward from the ready position. I would love to see some advanced AI deep fake video on this same point with the right foot 6 inches back, or 12 inches back. I saw this many times during this match and I think this thing alone would up your forehand.


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 07:04 
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wilkinru wrote:
Image

From this point:
https://youtu.be/KQfhIeSpVGU?t=721

I like the split step, the knee turn, the arm back, all of that is pretty good but I don't think I like the position of the right foot. If you watch the right foot it actually comes forward from the ready position. I would love to see some advanced AI deep fake video on this same point with the right foot 6 inches back, or 12 inches back. I saw this many times during this match and I think this thing alone would up your forehand.


I don't understand your point about the position of the right foot. You want him to hit the shot without the foot rotating forward into the ball? Or you want it to stay back enough so that he is still in a forehand stance of sorts?

I think he should try to stay lower through the shot but he knows this already. The rotation to me is okay but the upward jump not so much.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 07:13 
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NextLevel wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
Image

From this point:
https://youtu.be/KQfhIeSpVGU?t=721

I like the split step, the knee turn, the arm back, all of that is pretty good but I don't think I like the position of the right foot. If you watch the right foot it actually comes forward from the ready position. I would love to see some advanced AI deep fake video on this same point with the right foot 6 inches back, or 12 inches back. I saw this many times during this match and I think this thing alone would up your forehand.


I don't understand your point about the position of the right foot. You want him to hit the shot without the foot rotating forward into the ball? Or you want it to stay back enough so that he is still in a forehand stance of sorts?

I think he should try to stay lower through the shot but he knows this already. The rotation to me is okay but the upward jump not so much.


I want it a bit further back so he can stay low through the shot. It's like he's doing the opposite of the footwork drill we did with Brett.


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 11:45 
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Thanks for the analysis guys. Wilkinru, you are like the God of plucking stills and points out of a longer video.

This does sum up pretty well why I want to change my fh. I went back and watched this point in frames. One thing you may not see is I actually started too early. Five frames before she touched the ball I was moving. And I set up too far to my bh side, where she normally places this serve. I had time to wait and get a better read on her placement. Or I had time to move back to my right with both feet. But I could reach the ball with a lousy half step, so I did. This ruined my balance and is the right-foot forward step you picked out.

In both directions the swing is driven by my shoulders turning, not by my lower body. It's especially visible at the end when my hips finish rotating back to square 15 frames [.25 sec] after the ball leaves my bat. It's well onto her side of the net. This leaves me dead when she makes a quick, fast block. Which is totally expected, that's her strength.

So I think the initial reaction was bad in being premature and only roughly accurate. The setup of my feet relative to the ball was horrendous and totally unnecessary. The huge shoulder backswing is rubbish. And the lack of involvement of the legs and hips is crap. I also have my wrist too tense, but that's small beans in the scheme of what I hate about this forehand.

I think NL's approach to adopting a new stroke is the way forward. I am not going to change this forehand. I will just learn a completely different stroke and that will be my forehand. There doesn't need to be any connection as there is basically nothing here I want to keep.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 13:44 
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BRS wrote:
Thanks for the analysis guys. Wilkinru, you are like the God of plucking stills and points out of a longer video.


I like to see why it doesn't look right to my eyes so then I can correct it when I'm doing similar bad things. Or at least feel when I do it wrong.

Nothing like hitting a winner and talking to yourself on how crap the shot was...

I like the idea of making a new forehand. I'm not sure if it's actually possible but I like the idea. I'm not sure if I could make a new forehand at this point.


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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 21:36 
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wilkinru wrote:
BRS wrote:
Thanks for the analysis guys. Wilkinru, you are like the God of plucking stills and points out of a longer video.


Nothing like hitting a winner and talking to yourself on how crap the shot was...


idk if you are talking about this same point, but it was not a winner. She blocked the ball back directly at my left shoulder and I barely touched it.

I lose a lot of points like this where I make a first fh topspin. One way I have responded is to play bhs over 65% of the table, bc I rarely lose a point where I make a first attack with the pips. But that's not a good solution. A different fh that doesn't have loss of balance baked into the movement will be better.

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PostPosted: 13 Aug 2019, 23:56 
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I found a video of my new fh. You have all seen it before. The differences are so obvious I don't need to list.

https://youtu.be/_ppw7NT9g1w

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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 00:56 
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I think emulating this forehand will get you closer to what you are looking for since your body will split the difference.

https://youtu.be/aSKKANwSB9M

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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 01:22 
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I think you should just emulate this forehand:
https://youtu.be/0vWTt5yHR4M?t=50

https://youtu.be/51CZ7cojxE4?t=264 Or you could do this. In fact this point is really useful to look at. He did a big swing yet was ready to hit a backhand.


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 02:01 
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NextLevel wrote:
I think emulating this forehand will get you closer to what you are looking for since your body will split the difference.

https://youtu.be/aSKKANwSB9M


I think you are right. This is really helpful, thank you.

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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 02:04 
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wilkinru wrote:
I think you should just emulate this forehand:
https://youtu.be/0vWTt5yHR4M?t=50

https://youtu.be/51CZ7cojxE4?t=264 Or you could do this. In fact this point is really useful to look at. He did a big swing yet was ready to hit a backhand.


If I could stand completely still that might work. It essentially is my fh now except the constant horrible balance FAIL is missing.

Sorry, on this one NL is right and you are wrong, case closed.

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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 02:08 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
I think emulating this forehand will get you closer to what you are looking for since your body will split the difference.

https://youtu.be/aSKKANwSB9M


I think you are right. This is really helpful, thank you.

What are the advantages of this stroke?

The arm looks tense (maybe it isn't, but it does look so to me). I'm afraid it puts too much pressure on the shoulder.


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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2019, 02:14 
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ziv wrote:
BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
I think emulating this forehand will get you closer to what you are looking for since your body will split the difference.

https://youtu.be/aSKKANwSB9M


I think you are right. This is really helpful, thank you.

What are the advantages of this stroke?

The arm looks tight (maybe it isn't, but it does look so to me). I'm afraid it puts too much pressure on the shoulder.


The shoulder is the last thing it puts pressure on. The main thing is that is hard to use the arm without using the body/back/hips. The thing is that no one will end up hitting the ball this way other than Mizutani. But the feeling of what is required will get Ben closer to the Wang Liqin swing he is looking for. Mizutani is an extreme case of looping with the body with minimal arm usage.

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PostPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 23:04 
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NextLevel wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
BRS wrote:
@wilkinru Nothing has changed yet. I haven't practiced a new fh more than maybe 500 balls, which is effectively zero. What will change is a shorter swing, with very little upper arm, just hip turn and elbow joint. To succeed it requires a very loose wrist and a very forward swing over the ball. Big changes for me. It basically exchanges swinging at every ball like it was heavy chop to swinging every time like it's a block. And it supports the short pips constraints on playing distance and contact timing better than the bigger FFF swing. I guess it is FFF accounting for the possibility that the next ball is played to my bh, if you want to look at it that way.


I like that you have identified that you do kind of go after many balls like a heavy chop - but I saw some in that match that described what you want to do. There is hope.

I did a little experiment last practice session. I fed (In the Brett style) a guy a backspin ball to his forehand. His ball quality was poor initially so I had him start slightly away (to the side) from the incoming ball. This made him do a little (6 inches?) step/jump into position. Instantly his knees were in better position and thus his body rotation showed up and the shot quality improved. I'm starting to think every forehand must start with a little hop. This would also be another reason the robot fails us - because we get into position and never need to hop. Even reasonably good ball feeders will have enough variance (and can add more on purpose) that the hop itself can be practiced.

I'm watching feet at the club now, seeing if I can find good forehands without a hop.



I don't think you have to hop into the backswing on every forehand but when developing footwork it is absolutely necessary. You can't connect shot sequences without getting used to it.


I agree with NL.

Why not subtly hop/jump/bunny-hop into every single backswing? Let's assume that no ball comes to exactly the same spot and this:


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Last edited by Brett Clarke on 15 Aug 2019, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Aug 2019, 23:22 
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I'm going to make a video on what I believe Mizutani's issue is. The shoulder is a joint and it shouldn't be locked. When the best forehand players of all time extend their arm, the shoulder becomes a loose hinge and arm whip is created. Mizutani is a great player, but this forehand isn't what made him. His is doing the right thing with his legs/hips and he is getting a lot of wrist whip.

This forehand sometimes wins points from close range although he can't match the power of the best forehand players from mid distance.

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