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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 13:50 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
Here is my first attempt:


It's very very hard to remove the wrist whip. I was of course trying different things here, like using both arms, then 1 arm. I wasn't even really focused on the ball.


The body movement is flawless but you need to shove your arm out much lower.

Try to get the feeling that you are hitting down on the ball and throwing your arm low and forward.


What about what he's doing with the left arm? :lol:

Iskandar


My friend, he is going for the shove!!!

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 13:57 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
So your saying not to do it like this?

Attachment:
shove1.png


Was it hard to catch that frame? Did the racket snap in and out of that position at high speed? It's a real question.


Sure. I think these are 30fps videos but it's done in 3 shots in a row right around where the yellow bars are. I could find a better one. This took me 1 minute to do including logging in and cropping. I know I saw it even if the audio did make it clear not to. I didn't listen well enough.

The harimoto video was quite useful.

This shot is interesting and very much uses the closed to open racket motion to create spin.

I see how my technique is wrong and I think I have it now. It tires out my arm trying to stop my wrist. It goes a little counter to other techniques in that sense. My wrist wants to go forward.


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 13:57 
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I think it is hard to separate the actual footwork (i.e. moving the feet), anticipation and swing adjustments for balls coming to slightly (or not so) different points on the table.

Brett Clarke wrote:

In this example, if you are covering the entire table with your forehand, this undoubtedly is a footwork exercise. If this is the main part of your training, I'm saying you are on the wrong track. I would prescribe this exercise for a max of 8 mins a day to the best pros.



I am on the wrong track anyway since 100% of my training now is doing push-ups, jump rope and running in the park since everything is closed here.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:06 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
wilkinru wrote:
So your saying not to do it like this?

Attachment:
The attachment shove1.png is no longer available


Watch this one point of an amazing shove. Can you catch the same frame?

https://youtu.be/PQlG2qPbhj8?t=77


I managed to catch this frame. It happens as a result of violent arm and body movement. I'm sticking to my comments about the wrist regardless, and I hope you get my point. If you watch the video and then look at the frame, you'll see just how out of context the frame is.

Attachment:
Harimoto one frame.JPG
Harimoto one frame.JPG [ 52.12 KiB | Viewed 172 times ]

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Last edited by Brett Clarke on 24 Mar 2020, 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:08 
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fastmover wrote:
I think it is hard to separate the actual footwork (i.e. moving the feet), anticipation and swing adjustments for balls coming to slightly (or not so) different points on the table.

Brett Clarke wrote:

In this example, if you are covering the entire table with your forehand, this undoubtedly is a footwork exercise. If this is the main part of your training, I'm saying you are on the wrong track. I would prescribe this exercise for a max of 8 mins a day to the best pros.



I am on the wrong track anyway since 100% of my training now is doing push-ups, jump rope and running in the park since everything is closed here.


Sounds like you are very well off. I'm personally locked in a room with forced quarantine. Free Pro Tip here...don't catch too many flights overseas!!!

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:15 
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It is all about timing and contact point. Focusing on the wrist is losing the plot. I have always felt that if you felt the need to turn the wrist excessively over the ball, it usually meant that your stroke didn't adjust to the ball early enough. Not necessarily a bad thing but not something you should do all the time as part of your base stroke. Training yourself to adapt early to the ball flight is better. Russ has a good stroke, and no matter what changes he makes or doesn't make, he shouldn't lose sight of that. He can just have a bit more energy going towards the ball.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:36 
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Have the feeling of straightening your arm down and forward may help some people.

Attachment:
Shove arm angle.JPG
Shove arm angle.JPG [ 87.25 KiB | Viewed 172 times ]

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:39 
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I have done way too much analysis on this now.

Or maybe just enough. It's a lot more fun than reading about the end of the world as we know it...

Here is the same frame you caught, you beat me to it.
Attachment:
harishove.png
harishove.png [ 791.11 KiB | Viewed 172 times ]


So lets look at the Harimoto frame just after.

Attachment:
shoveafterhari.png
shoveafterhari.png [ 264.84 KiB | Viewed 172 times ]


And let's look at the instruction frame just after.

Attachment:
shoveafterinst.png
shoveafterinst.png [ 128.83 KiB | Viewed 172 times ]


So from all of this, I can now more clearly see the snapping at the end and the desire for the racket to come back to this position as the wrist stays bent.

At around 1:20, I think slow motion here would be super useful to see for me. It's pretty hard to see just how far you come back. Now that I'm going hardcore into it I see what NL is talking about more. I also see how the blade makes it below the table.

I still have not done a correct one.


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 14:49 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
fastmover wrote:
When my partner blocks anywhere on the table and I topspin to a corner, what do I train? Footwork?


In this example, if you are covering the entire table with your forehand, this undoubtedly is a footwork exercise. If this is the main part of your training, I'm saying you are on the wrong track. I would prescribe this exercise for a max of 8 mins a day to the best pros.

If, in this example, if you are using both your backhand and forehand, I wouldn't exactly describe it as a footwork exercise per se. I'm saying that it's infinitely more important that you twist/bow/manipulate your body correctly than moving your feet. You should just be occasionally subtly jumping into backswings which may or may not move your entire body a couple of inches here and there.

Maybe this is confusing so I'll try to use a clear example below. Ma Long is doing a fh topspin exercise and the blocker is blocking randomly in exactly 50% of the table. Do you see Ma Long doing a lot of "footwork"? Or is he almost exclusively standing in one spot and occasionally subtly jumping into a backswing if the ball's position is significantly changed. Does it look like he is frantically moving his feet? Ma Long wouldn't even be aware that he is changing his position in this exercise. His forehand technique is obviously perfect (he must have watched ttEDGE 2020 02 a bunch) and he is able to manipulate his body and arm so he doesn't have to move. A big part of this skill is anticipation.

Watch his feet and think about the importance of footwork



Some good points here. I would also add that on EVERY ball he moves his feet. Even if they do not actually go anywhere he is quite ready to make a required adjustment. Club players would do quite well to constantly be ready to move the feet even if they do not have to every time. I think this is a bit of a sin with practicing with the robot also.

I was able to execute 10-15 forehand loops in a row today multiple times and have them blocked back by my old training partners. Even with my bum ankle I made small adjustments and was able to find the table over and over. I felt a bit of accomplishment with that. The simple line in the 02 video where it discusses how high the ball should be over the table really made a difference in my mindset.


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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2020, 15:12 
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Here is my favorite uses of the shove. Instead of blocking against topspin, many players just use the shove to gain a quick advantage. Feel free to talk about the wrist all you want.


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 10:20 
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The first few shots not too excited about, but the last 10 seconds or so does feel different. I'm making really solid contact with the ball, unlike any of my other shots. So much so that a harder sponge may be in order if I continue with this.

Every time I do this practice it feels better. I also now see why Harimoto turns his paddle up on some shots. He's aware this shot can have trouble getting over the net so he twists his wrist up to get more spin on lower balls.


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 15:03 
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wilkinru wrote:


The first few shots not too excited about, but the last 10 seconds or so does feel different. I'm making really solid contact with the ball, unlike any of my other shots. So much so that a harder sponge may be in order if I continue with this.

Every time I do this practice it feels better. I also now see why Harimoto turns his paddle up on some shots. He's aware this shot can have trouble getting over the net so he twists his wrist up to get more spin on lower balls.



A huge step forward. Try to get the feeling of playing down on the ball more

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 23:10 
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wilkinru wrote:


The first few shots not too excited about, but the last 10 seconds or so does feel different. I'm making really solid contact with the ball, unlike any of my other shots. So much so that a harder sponge may be in order if I continue with this.

Every time I do this practice it feels better. I also now see why Harimoto turns his paddle up on some shots. He's aware this shot can have trouble getting over the net so he twists his wrist up to get more spin on lower balls.


The arm straightening is better, but even on the last few you are dropping your racket (almost as if you intend to go upwards vs backspin) rather than bringing it back towards your chest and this is giving your stroke a vertical swing. A lot of the verticality in the swing comes from the fold-squat/unfold-unsquat, so your racket mostly has to move back and forth - there is very little need for the racket to go below the table on this stroke lose to the table. Since I am used to years of swinging with the arm and playing table tennis standing straight, I have a milder version of your problem. IF you have decent equipment, you really don't need to lift the ball as much as you are doing with the vertical arm swing.

Turning the racket over excessively is a way to trap topspin (especially when redirecting the ball) or keep the ball lower, IMO. It definitely doesn't add spin in my experience. IT's a good tool when you misread the ball and need to trap it. But as a part of your base stroke, I think it encourages laziness when adapting to the ball. In other words, one shouldn't be doing it all the time in practice.

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Last edited by NextLevel on 25 Mar 2020, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 23:26 
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Here is my last training session where I even tried to do this:

https://youtu.be/dYIc6t5P-V8?t=116

Here is the one time I tried it away from the table - not enough backswing lol:

https://youtu.be/dYIc6t5P-V8?t=298

Fun to learn but I doubt I will consistently swing this way even though I do something like it without the body movement a lot - backhand for me will always be a creature of instinct (subservient to technique), forehand a creature of diligent technique (subservient to instinct).

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2020, 01:40 
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NextLevel wrote:
wilkinru wrote:


The first few shots not too excited about, but the last 10 seconds or so does feel different. I'm making really solid contact with the ball, unlike any of my other shots. So much so that a harder sponge may be in order if I continue with this.

Every time I do this practice it feels better. I also now see why Harimoto turns his paddle up on some shots. He's aware this shot can have trouble getting over the net so he twists his wrist up to get more spin on lower balls.


The arm straightening is better, but even on the last few you are dropping your racket (almost as if you intend to go upwards vs backspin) rather than bringing it back towards your chest and this is giving your stroke a vertical swing. A lot of the verticality in the swing comes from the fold-squat/unfold-unsquat, so your racket mostly has to move back and forth - there is very little need for the racket to go below the table on this stroke lose to the table. Since I am used to years of swinging with the arm and playing table tennis standing straight, I have a milder version of your problem. IF you have decent equipment, you really don't need to lift the ball as much as you are doing with the vertical arm swing.


I agree with this. I have same problem myself.

Edit - after watching some players, I'm not sure if I still completely agree with myself and NL. Let me think about it.

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Last edited by Brett Clarke on 26 Mar 2020, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.

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