OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 01 Jun 2020, 15:51


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6810 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436 ... 454  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2020, 23:01 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 18:58
Posts: 137
Location: Croatia
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 11 times
Blade: Xiom Offensive S
FH: Yinhe Mercury II
BH: Nittaku Factive
Brett Clarke wrote:
Let me show you how different they can be. Here is ML playing a squat and thrust (his standard backhand against backspin), followed by his version of the shove, which I'll be calling the "dive" from now on.



Does this mean that "shove " is specialized technique used against no spin or top spin balls and we still use Henzell type topspin vs backspin?

I was able to train shove only one session before our hall was shut down but was highly impressed on how intuitive and natural it felt- much less whiffed balls and hit edges so I was hoping this could be my default technique against every ball type even heavy backspin, is this doable?


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 00:07 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 06 Jun 2015, 13:09
Posts: 1079
Location: Las Vegas
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 78 times
Snowflake Backhands each one is unique...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OknGUQVX30

I've started doing random multiball with this shot and am pretty happy.


I've found multiple benefits for my not quite correct new backhand:
Thicker contact
Less missing and edges
Much more direct shots which can be directed easily anywhere
Less elbow pain
Easier to handle balls which land closer to the forehand side (even if not great power)
Easier to transition to the forehand

Downsides:
Less spin
Harder to put the ball shorter over the net
Different muscles in the shoulders are being used
Challenging to use against low balls

None of these seem to be real deal breakers since you are allowed to use any backhand type you want for each shot. I am curious if I'm shoving too hard with my shoulder muscle.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 01:14 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
Barfly wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Let me show you how different they can be. Here is ML playing a squat and thrust (his standard backhand against backspin), followed by his version of the shove, which I'll be calling the "dive" from now on.



Does this mean that "shove " is specialized technique used against no spin or top spin balls and we still use Henzell type topspin vs backspin?

I was able to train shove only one session before our hall was shut down but was highly impressed on how intuitive and natural it felt- much less whiffed balls and hit edges so I was hoping this could be my default technique against every ball type even heavy backspin, is this doable?


You can definitely use the shove type motion against backspin, however, you'll always need to LTT13 squat and thrust. The swing might end up being a bit different against backspin (more up etc), though the mindset is the same. Here's the best example that I can find https://youtu.be/IiARkUO6aEE?t=60

Put some footage on your channel when that hall reopens. I'll know where to find it.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 01:23 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
mickd wrote:
I'll keep playing around with it to see which I end up doing. It was interesting seeing the pros use both in various situations, and maybe that'll be what I end up doing too.Cheers :)


Mick, if you can do both, depending on the oncoming ball's speed and length, I'll make a video about it and put it under Henzell's ttEDGE - The Edge section of the website.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 01:29 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
wilkinru wrote:
Snowflake Backhands each one is unique...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OknGUQVX30

I've started doing random multiball with this shot and am pretty happy.


I've found multiple benefits for my not quite correct new backhand:
Thicker contact
Less missing and edges
Much more direct shots which can be directed easily anywhere
Less elbow pain
Easier to handle balls which land closer to the forehand side (even if not great power)
Easier to transition to the forehand

Downsides:
Less spin
Harder to put the ball shorter over the net
Different muscles in the shoulders are being used
Challenging to use against low balls

None of these seem to be real deal breakers since you are allowed to use any backhand type you want for each shot. I am curious if I'm shoving too hard with my shoulder muscle.


Russ, In the minuscule amount of time I've had to try the shove, I found many of the same benefits you listed.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 01:54 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
NextLevel wrote:
This is my "natural" backhand.

https://youtu.be/B6bpbVVGPZk?t=771

I always feel jealous when I see complete forehands with full knee, hip and body usage etc. I basically feel like I have to backhands, one on the forehand side and one on the backhand side.


I know your base shot very well. I'm going to say that I think I see some minor body improvements as a result of messing with some of the techniques recently. The shot is propelled by a little bow/twist combo and it comes mostly from your core. It's hard to see if you don't know what you are looking for. The elbow is used as a pivot point which is necessary if there is any sort of twist involved.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this shot. The body and arm are in sync and it all works.

If you were an elite junior and I was responsible for your future, I'd be encouraging your to lean/bow forward more on the backswing and unfold on the forward swing. We went through this is Florida. I probably wouldn't try to take the slight twist out of the shot because it comes naturally to you and it suits the arm movement. It helps with what you are exactly doing. I have encountered this exact scenario a lot over the last year of my job and I tend to have a more hands-off approach.

All options are on the table for you. Do you want to incorporate a FZD shove or ML dive? It doesn't matter either way because you have a solid foundation for what you already do. You aren't making unnecessary mistakes with what you have. I just find it fun to learn new stuff as it comes up.

I get jealous when I see people who get to play table tennis. That's another story. The most important thing with your fh is that you don't hurt yourself and have to stop playing. You know what you have to do technically, so just get as close as you can without pain.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 01:56 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 08 Dec 2015, 10:24
Posts: 110
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Brett Clarke wrote:
mickd wrote:
I'll keep playing around with it to see which I end up doing. It was interesting seeing the pros use both in various situations, and maybe that'll be what I end up doing too.Cheers :)


Mick, if you can do both, depending on the oncoming ball's speed and length, I'll make a video about it and put it under Henzell's ttEDGE - The Edge section of the website.


If you mean in an actual match like situation, I'm going to need another 10 to 20 years :)

Against the robot, with enough practice, I think I can pull it off. It took about an hour to get the feeling of folding and unfolding yesterday. I think with a few more sessions I will be able to do it quite consistently against the robot. Once that happens, I'll be able to work on getting it into drills and eventually into matches!

Unfortunately, once schools open up again I might lose this convenient practice room!! I've really enjoyed the robot so far. Wish I did this a few years ago.

Today I tried opening against underspin. I was trying to copy Ma Long. But... Yeah... After 6 recordings I got something I felt was getting there.

Do you guys have any advice? Things I'm doing wrong or maybe a different mindset I can use? Anything at all would be greatly appreciated!

Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHvcastw5vI

Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVv00-Z8RJc


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 02:07 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 08 Dec 2015, 10:24
Posts: 110
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 2 times
I wasn't going to post this but since it came up, I did try the backhand today again at a slightly faster pace; about 1 ball per second. It ended up being a dive rather than a shove.

I think it turned out okay. Some shots were a little off, and I wasn't really going for the dive when I took the video, so I think if I did it again with the intention of diving, it'd probably look better.

Diagonal View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOp794_1RK8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 02:10 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
mickd wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
mickd wrote:
I'll keep playing around with it to see which I end up doing. It was interesting seeing the pros use both in various situations, and maybe that'll be what I end up doing too.Cheers :)


Mick, if you can do both, depending on the oncoming ball's speed and length, I'll make a video about it and put it under Henzell's ttEDGE - The Edge section of the website.


If you mean in an actual match like situation, I'm going to need another 10 to 20 years :)

Against the robot, with enough practice, I think I can pull it off. It took about an hour to get the feeling of folding and unfolding yesterday. I think with a few more sessions I will be able to do it quite consistently against the robot. Once that happens, I'll be able to work on getting it into drills and eventually into matches!

Unfortunately, once schools open up again I might lose this convenient practice room!! I've really enjoyed the robot so far. Wish I did this a few years ago.

Today I tried opening against underspin. I was trying to copy Ma Long. But... Yeah... After 6 recordings I got something I felt was getting there.

Do you guys have any advice? Things I'm doing wrong or maybe a different mindset I can use? Anything at all would be greatly appreciated!

Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHvcastw5vI

Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVv00-Z8RJc


I'm extremely impressed, especially when I think back to how it was 6 months ago.

Now for the obligatory advice. Make sure you don't squat too early or you won't be able to seamlessly thrust on the forward swing. You want to bounce off the bottom of the squat. It's actually a problem with training with a robot...you don't know when to squat because the ball doesn't get fired at the time you expected it. Almost ignore this advice as it won't happen when you play with a human.

Make sure you thrust your hips forward to straighten your back quickly on the forward swing. Take this advice.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 02:25 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
mickd wrote:
I wasn't going to post this but since it came up, I did try the backhand today again at a slightly faster pace; about 1 ball per second. It ended up being a dive rather than a shove.

I think it turned out okay. Some shots were a little off, and I wasn't really going for the dive when I took the video, so I think if I did it again with the intention of diving, it'd probably look better.

Diagonal View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOp794_1RK8


I like it. Just so you know, this is a dive and not a 2020 03 shove. You are directly straightening your legs and your hips are going backward on the forward swing. I personally wouldn't change this shot because it happens naturally (same advice I gave to NextLevel above, for a totally different backhand shot), even if you are intending to fold/unfold. The moment you sped things up, you went back to your new default dive.

If you were a junior and I was responsible for your future, I wouldn't say a word about this shot. I'd leave you blissfully unaware of what you are doing and all the other options.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 02:50 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
Attachment:
Ma dive.JPG
Ma dive.JPG [ 45.25 KiB | Viewed 73 times ]



Attachment:
Mick Dive.png
Mick Dive.png [ 384.27 KiB | Viewed 73 times ]

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 03:15 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 2162
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 232 times
Below is the video I show to elite players who struggle to understand body movement on the backhand. This is clearly a "shove" and I chose this video because the movement is blatantly obvious.

There is limited knee movement and the force is mostly coming from the fold/unfold of the torso. This is the backhand body movement I teach by default. Then it comes down to a player's tendencies where I go.


_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 08:11 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 3352
Has thanked: 293 times
Been thanked: 292 times
Blade: Carbonado 45/245
FH: D09C 1.9mm
BH: T05 H 1.9mm
mickd wrote:
Thanks NL. What I like about the stroke is that you look stable and have good timing. I have a question if you don't mind. Since you have bad knees, when you play your backhand, where does the power feel like it's being generated from? Do you feel like it's mostly from the elbow? Or do you get the feeling of it being generated from your legs or torso? Also what are you thinking about to take your backhand to the next level?


Brett's description of everything (including motivations) was pretty complete so I will avoid a retread as much as I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6bpbVV ... u.be&t=900

At that point, while grossly cleaning my sweat with my shirt (excuse me), I also shadow elements of my stroke without the leg/hip movements. The power is being generated largely by pulling the racket into the ball, so the elbow comes backwards while the racket comes forward. There is also some windshield wiper/frisbee tossing thing, but to be honest the stroke has evolved a lot. It definitely isn't the only backhand stroke I play and it isn't the only one I practice, but it is what I often default to when just swinging. It's the essence of what the first coach who showed me a backhand topspin taught me - it's weird how things you learn early persist over time even when you didn't do them well at first...

By the way, in my head, I sometimes think I am doing a Fan Zhendong shove or a Ma Long drive - it just never looks that way obviously. That said, the backswing position I shadow has an arm structure that I think is very common in backhand play (see the Ma Long backhands in the video that Brett posted vs underspin and topspin) and it is how I try to teach the backhand topspin these days - hold your arm in that position then swing at the ball. Of course, using the body more efficiently than I currently do is important as well. But that backswing is how I teach to use the arm. You can use it to shove, dive etc. But it helps you prepare when you are out of position or need to play away from the table as well. As Henzell said, it expands your backhand topspin zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9t7xTFR8q4

The main thing I try to avoid when I compare my stroke to Henzell's is to not break the stroke plane of my wrist which he seems to do repeatedly in that video especially to trap topspin ( he didn't do so on all his shots, but some people found it essential to his technique, while I figured watching other players that it wasn't necessary).

I think on another website I posted these two videos:

2015:
https://youtu.be/An5iXgG9ej0?t=240
2020:
https://youtu.be/osq98IGWpIc?t=291


So it is not like my backhand was stuck in a time machine. And if you want comedic relief:

https://youtu.be/qAo9_NTSQRE (Rated roughly 1400)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9t7xTFR8q4 (Rated roughly 1500/1600)

I didn't even have a backhand topspin then even though my backhand was still my best shot (it was completely off on the first day and completely on on the 2nd day after being rebuilt by my coach).

About taking my backhand to the next level - I pretty much do in some form or another everything Brett posts. As you can see my backhand evolves subtly with all the new technical information he teaches and I actually do learn to punch/block more - I find my version of the shove mechanic easier for me than a true punch so it is easier to play faster when someone is spinning to me and I use that, sometimes even to redirect or loop serves down the line. My partner made a joke when I used two hands to balance my shove that I was looking like Ma Long. Then the next week, I tried to improve my backswing and close my racket more and my partner said that I couldn't be doing Ma Long one week and Fan Zhendong the next. All hilarious to me but I just wanted to give you an idea of what I go through testing ideas with my backhand.

The other thing is that because I now hit with a practice partner who just likes to hit lots of shots for practice, I get to subtly refine my shots under pressure these days once a week. He is trying to convince me to play closer to the table and take the ball earlier and confidently. The real issue for me now is serve return and before this freaking virus hit, I had planned to get a week of training on serve return.

Finally, moving to where the ball bounces, preparing the backswing earlier and taking the ball earlier are all things I need to work on. I am going to try to play like Neo in the Matrix close to the table for a while... stay tuned and sorry for the long post.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 08:36 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 3352
Has thanked: 293 times
Been thanked: 292 times
Blade: Carbonado 45/245
FH: D09C 1.9mm
BH: T05 H 1.9mm
mickd wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
mickd wrote:
I'll keep playing around with it to see which I end up doing. It was interesting seeing the pros use both in various situations, and maybe that'll be what I end up doing too.Cheers :)


Mick, if you can do both, depending on the oncoming ball's speed and length, I'll make a video about it and put it under Henzell's ttEDGE - The Edge section of the website.


If you mean in an actual match like situation, I'm going to need another 10 to 20 years :)

Against the robot, with enough practice, I think I can pull it off. It took about an hour to get the feeling of folding and unfolding yesterday. I think with a few more sessions I will be able to do it quite consistently against the robot. Once that happens, I'll be able to work on getting it into drills and eventually into matches!

Unfortunately, once schools open up again I might lose this convenient practice room!! I've really enjoyed the robot so far. Wish I did this a few years ago.

Today I tried opening against underspin. I was trying to copy Ma Long. But... Yeah... After 6 recordings I got something I felt was getting there.

Do you guys have any advice? Things I'm doing wrong or maybe a different mindset I can use? Anything at all would be greatly appreciated!

Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHvcastw5vI

Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVv00-Z8RJc



We have different arm mechanics (more elbow!!!) but even with that, the shot looks great if you can consistently maintain that in a match. I know I played something like that but with more elbow for a long time, I love the timing of the whip to get acceleration. And of course, I could never squat, so this has more potential than my shot. Sorry to sound so narcissistic but bottom line it is a good shot.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 08:43 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 3352
Has thanked: 293 times
Been thanked: 292 times
Blade: Carbonado 45/245
FH: D09C 1.9mm
BH: T05 H 1.9mm
Brett Clarke wrote:
Below is the video I show to elite players who struggle to understand body movement on the backhand. This is clearly a "shove" and I chose this video because the movement is blatantly obvious.

There is limited knee movement and the force is mostly coming from the fold/unfold of the torso. This is the backhand body movement I teach by default. Then it comes down to a player's tendencies where I go.



That arm swing is what I want mickd to emulate!

Or if not that one, then this one:

https://youtu.be/kyvzVosDvvY?t=214

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6810 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436 ... 454  Next



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group