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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 09:33 
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What if mickd's backhand is actually fine

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 10:03 
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fastmover wrote:
What if mickd's backhand is actually fine


It clearly is - after all, I am the only one who sees something potentially wrong with it.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 22:26 
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NextLevel wrote:
fastmover wrote:
What if mickd's backhand is actually fine


It clearly is - after all, I am the only one who sees something potentially wrong with it.


There is no way to tell how it is from the information provided. Record a match video (post-Corona of course) and then you will know.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2020, 23:30 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
fastmover wrote:
What if mickd's backhand is actually fine


It clearly is - after all, I am the only one who sees something potentially wrong with it.


There is no way to tell how it is from the information provided. Record a match video (post-Corona of course) and then you will know.

Maybe 6 months to a year post Corona. He needs time to get comfortable reading and anticipating in practice matches.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 00:14 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
fastmover wrote:
What if mickd's backhand is actually fine


It clearly is - after all, I am the only one who sees something potentially wrong with it.


There is no way to tell how it is from the information provided. Record a match video (post-Corona of course) and then you will know.


That is a very good point.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 01:00 
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Brett Clarke wrote:

I'm extremely impressed, especially when I think back to how it was 6 months ago.

Now for the obligatory advice. Make sure you don't squat too early or you won't be able to seamlessly thrust on the forward swing. You want to bounce off the bottom of the squat. It's actually a problem with training with a robot...you don't know when to squat because the ball doesn't get fired at the time you expected it. Almost ignore this advice as it won't happen when you play with a human.

Make sure you thrust your hips forward to straighten your back quickly on the forward swing. Take this advice.


Thanks Brett. I tried thrusting my hips forward today. I don't think I'm quite there yet. Some of the shots felt like my hips were going forward, but I'm not quite sure if I'm losing out on something else with the body mechanics.

Would you mind having a quick look to see if I'm working towards the right idea with the forward thrust?

A few of the shots I felt like maybe I had it kinda... The last two balls in particular you can see what I'm trying to go for.

BH Against Under Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsShdzxBys8

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 01:12 
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NextLevel wrote:
Brett's description of everything (including motivations) was pretty complete so I will avoid a retread as much as I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6bpbVV ... u.be&t=900

At that point, while grossly cleaning my sweat with my shirt (excuse me), I also shadow elements of my stroke without the leg/hip movements. The power is being generated largely by pulling the racket into the ball, so the elbow comes backwards while the racket comes forward. There is also some windshield wiper/frisbee tossing thing, but to be honest the stroke has evolved a lot. It definitely isn't the only backhand stroke I play and it isn't the only one I practice, but it is what I often default to when just swinging. It's the essence of what the first coach who showed me a backhand topspin taught me - it's weird how things you learn early persist over time even when you didn't do them well at first...

By the way, in my head, I sometimes think I am doing a Fan Zhendong shove or a Ma Long drive - it just never looks that way obviously. That said, the backswing position I shadow has an arm structure that I think is very common in backhand play (see the Ma Long backhands in the video that Brett posted vs underspin and topspin) and it is how I try to teach the backhand topspin these days - hold your arm in that position then swing at the ball. Of course, using the body more efficiently than I currently do is important as well. But that backswing is how I teach to use the arm. You can use it to shove, dive etc. But it helps you prepare when you are out of position or need to play away from the table as well. As Henzell said, it expands your backhand topspin zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9t7xTFR8q4

The main thing I try to avoid when I compare my stroke to Henzell's is to not break the stroke plane of my wrist which he seems to do repeatedly in that video especially to trap topspin ( he didn't do so on all his shots, but some people found it essential to his technique, while I figured watching other players that it wasn't necessary).

I think on another website I posted these two videos:

2015:
https://youtu.be/An5iXgG9ej0?t=240
2020:
https://youtu.be/osq98IGWpIc?t=291


So it is not like my backhand was stuck in a time machine. And if you want comedic relief:

https://youtu.be/qAo9_NTSQRE (Rated roughly 1400)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9t7xTFR8q4 (Rated roughly 1500/1600)

I didn't even have a backhand topspin then even though my backhand was still my best shot (it was completely off on the first day and completely on on the 2nd day after being rebuilt by my coach).

About taking my backhand to the next level - I pretty much do in some form or another everything Brett posts. As you can see my backhand evolves subtly with all the new technical information he teaches and I actually do learn to punch/block more - I find my version of the shove mechanic easier for me than a true punch so it is easier to play faster when someone is spinning to me and I use that, sometimes even to redirect or loop serves down the line. My partner made a joke when I used two hands to balance my shove that I was looking like Ma Long. Then the next week, I tried to improve my backswing and close my racket more and my partner said that I couldn't be doing Ma Long one week and Fan Zhendong the next. All hilarious to me but I just wanted to give you an idea of what I go through testing ideas with my backhand.

The other thing is that because I now hit with a practice partner who just likes to hit lots of shots for practice, I get to subtly refine my shots under pressure these days once a week. He is trying to convince me to play closer to the table and take the ball earlier and confidently. The real issue for me now is serve return and before this freaking virus hit, I had planned to get a week of training on serve return.

Finally, moving to where the ball bounces, preparing the backswing earlier and taking the ball earlier are all things I need to work on. I am going to try to play like Neo in the Matrix close to the table for a while... stay tuned and sorry for the long post.


This was a really interesting post to read. Looking at the videos, you've definitely come a long long way haha. Your body mechanics definitely look like they're working with your stroke now compared to 5 years ago. And you were soo backhand oriented. I see you covering nearly the whole table with your backhand in lots of the points. I loved the excitement when you took sets off Berg and when you won in the ~1500/1600 video.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 01:39 
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BRS wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
fastmover wrote:
What if mickd's backhand is actually fine


It clearly is - after all, I am the only one who sees something potentially wrong with it.


There is no way to tell how it is from the information provided. Record a match video (post-Corona of course) and then you will know.


Haha I would love to post some epic match for you guys to see... but I am what I am currently. And that's probably like an ~1800 player. A lot of my match videos are on the other forum, so if you haven't seen them, look up my threads there :)

NL understands where I am at with the stroke. But I think realistically it'll be more like 1-2 years before I can comfortably use them in matches. He gives me too much credit.

Both the BH dive I'm currently practicing, and the BH against underspin are new creations of mine since I started using a robot a few days ago. The dive came natural because it was close to my current backhand, except I'm passive with it, so there is no acceleration of the arm through the use of the body. Just the body bouncing up and down I guess. But using a robot like this is something that I've always wanted to do to try and learn how the top players use their body and how they're able to hit such amazing balls. I'd have zero chance to effectively use them at my current skill ability :sweat:

But I have a plan, and I hope that if things pan out, sooner rather than later I'll be able to utilize them in actual match settings. The only hiccup in the plan is that I'll probably need to forfeit this beautiful training room once schools open up next week.

Today I moved the BH dive into the second part of the 1000 part plan. I set the robot to do one of three differently placed balls randomly to the backhand side, so at least I'd have to move while trying to maintain technique. I found it difficult to move my legs fast enough so I think most the time I was just shifting my weight to the left or right to get my body behind the ball. The speed was set to I think about 50 balls a minute. I enjoyed the practice and I plan to do it again the next time I go, too.

Backhand Dive Random Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR-yHF0bJeE

I went to a table tennis workshop for kids a few months ago, and the coach there mentioned to just shift your weight when the ball comes to your backhand as long as it's within reach by shifting your weight only. He basically said there was no need to move. What do you guys think? I suspect the answer might have to do with time. I see FZD shift his weight without really moving his legs to get fast balls to his wide backhand, but I don't really remember seeing Ma Long do it as much. Should I try to train to do micro steps instead? And if I'm short for time, just shift my weight?


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 01:54 
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mickd wrote:
Haha I would love to post some epic match for you guys to see... but I am what I am currently. And that's probably like an ~1800 player. A lot of my match videos are on the other forum, so if you haven't seen them, look up my threads there :)

NL understands where I am at with the stroke. But I think realistically it'll be more like 1-2 years before I can comfortably use them in matches. He gives me too much credit.

Both the BH dive I'm currently practicing, and the BH against underspin are new creations of mine since I started using a robot a few days ago. The dive came natural because it was close to my current backhand, except I'm passive with it, so there is no acceleration of the arm through the use of the body. Just the body bouncing up and down I guess. But using a robot like this is something that I've always wanted to do to try and learn how the top players use their body and how they're able to hit such amazing balls. I'd have zero chance to effectively use them at my current skill ability :sweat:

But I have a plan, and I hope that if things pan out, sooner rather than later I'll be able to utilize them in actual match settings. The only hiccup in the plan is that I'll probably need to forfeit this beautiful training room once schools open up next week.

Today I moved the BH dive into the second part of the 1000 part plan. I set the robot to do one of three differently placed balls randomly to the backhand side, so at least I'd have to move while trying to maintain technique. I found it difficult to move my legs fast enough so I think most the time I was just shifting my weight to the left or right to get my body behind the ball. The speed was set to I think about 50 balls a minute. I enjoyed the practice and I plan to do it again the next time I go, too.

Backhand Dive Random Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR-yHF0bJeE

I went to a table tennis workshop for kids a few months ago, and the coach there mentioned to just shift your weight when the ball comes to your backhand as long as it's within reach by shifting your weight only. He basically said there was no need to move. What do you guys think? I suspect the answer might have to do with time. I see FZD shift his weight without really moving his legs to get fast balls to his wide backhand, but I don't really remember seeing Ma Long do it as much. Should I try to train to do micro steps instead? And if I'm short for time, just shift my weight?


Mick, what you were doing in that video felt right enough to me. I have nothing to add.

A good percentage of movement on the backhand can come from leaning on the legs and sometimes you need to move a bit. Context is everything.

Now play Ma Long a match and let's see if it all works. You've had you 26 seconds of training.

Mick, if by some chance you are now posting to chuckle at the responses (including mine), you are now my hero. Either way, please keep the videos coming.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 01:58 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
mickd wrote:
Haha I would love to post some epic match for you guys to see... but I am what I am currently. And that's probably like an ~1800 player. A lot of my match videos are on the other forum, so if you haven't seen them, look up my threads there :)

NL understands where I am at with the stroke. But I think realistically it'll be more like 1-2 years before I can comfortably use them in matches. He gives me too much credit.

Both the BH dive I'm currently practicing, and the BH against underspin are new creations of mine since I started using a robot a few days ago. The dive came natural because it was close to my current backhand, except I'm passive with it, so there is no acceleration of the arm through the use of the body. Just the body bouncing up and down I guess. But using a robot like this is something that I've always wanted to do to try and learn how the top players use their body and how they're able to hit such amazing balls. I'd have zero chance to effectively use them at my current skill ability :sweat:

But I have a plan, and I hope that if things pan out, sooner rather than later I'll be able to utilize them in actual match settings. The only hiccup in the plan is that I'll probably need to forfeit this beautiful training room once schools open up next week.

Today I moved the BH dive into the second part of the 1000 part plan. I set the robot to do one of three differently placed balls randomly to the backhand side, so at least I'd have to move while trying to maintain technique. I found it difficult to move my legs fast enough so I think most the time I was just shifting my weight to the left or right to get my body behind the ball. The speed was set to I think about 50 balls a minute. I enjoyed the practice and I plan to do it again the next time I go, too.

Backhand Dive Random Front View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR-yHF0bJeE

I went to a table tennis workshop for kids a few months ago, and the coach there mentioned to just shift your weight when the ball comes to your backhand as long as it's within reach by shifting your weight only. He basically said there was no need to move. What do you guys think? I suspect the answer might have to do with time. I see FZD shift his weight without really moving his legs to get fast balls to his wide backhand, but I don't really remember seeing Ma Long do it as much. Should I try to train to do micro steps instead? And if I'm short for time, just shift my weight?


Mick, what you were doing in that video felt right enough to me. I have nothing to add.

A good percentage of movement on the backhand can come from leaning on the legs and sometimes you need to move a bit. Context is everything.

Now play Ma Long a match and let's see if it all works. You've had you 26 seconds of training.

Mick, if by some chance you are now posting to chuckle at the responses (including mine), you are now my hero. Either way, please keep the videos coming.


Mickd has been posting videos on mytt for years. The mytt crowd is far tougher than I can be on my worst days with a bad mood and a coronavirus scare. You underestimate his resolve. He is not your usual video learner.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 02:01 
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mickd wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:

I'm extremely impressed, especially when I think back to how it was 6 months ago.

Now for the obligatory advice. Make sure you don't squat too early or you won't be able to seamlessly thrust on the forward swing. You want to bounce off the bottom of the squat. It's actually a problem with training with a robot...you don't know when to squat because the ball doesn't get fired at the time you expected it. Almost ignore this advice as it won't happen when you play with a human.

Make sure you thrust your hips forward to straighten your back quickly on the forward swing. Take this advice.


Thanks Brett. I tried thrusting my hips forward today. I don't think I'm quite there yet. Some of the shots felt like my hips were going forward, but I'm not quite sure if I'm losing out on something else with the body mechanics.

Would you mind having a quick look to see if I'm working towards the right idea with the forward thrust?

A few of the shots I felt like maybe I had it kinda... The last two balls in particular you can see what I'm trying to go for.

BH Against Under Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsShdzxBys8

Cheers.


Mick, that didn't quite look as sweet as it did from the front view yesterday. There were a few towards the end that looked good though.

It's a bit unnatural for you to straighten the torso/thrust the hips. Keep using your camera until you get it right. I know, that you know, what to do.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 02:05 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Mick, what you were doing in that video felt right enough to me. I have nothing to add.

A good percentage of movement on the backhand can come from leaning on the legs and sometimes you need to move a bit. Context is everything.

Now play Ma Long a match and let's see if it all works. You've had you 26 seconds of training.

Mick, if by some chance you are now posting to chuckle at the responses (including mine), you are now my hero. Either way, please keep the videos coming.


Mickd has been posting videos on mytt for years. The mytt crowd is far tougher than I can be on my worst days with a bad mood and a coronavirus scare. You underestimate his resolve. He is not your usual video learner.


Why didn't you say so earlier Laj? Let's really hammer the guy then and show him some OOAK pain!

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 02:21 
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mickd wrote:
This was a really interesting post to read. Looking at the videos, you've definitely come a long long way haha. Your body mechanics definitely look like they're working with your stroke now compared to 5 years ago. And you were soo backhand oriented. I see you covering nearly the whole table with your backhand in lots of the points. I loved the excitement when you took sets off Berg and when you won in the ~1500/1600 video.


I had a $50 wager riding on that Berg match. That is why I was pumped to win. The backhand was working and I didn't know better so rinse and repeat.

I know you have done this before so I took a page out of your book. We all forget how far we have come in our efforts to get better so it is good look at the video tape especially when we aren't winning matches (or in this case, playing them as much).

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 02:28 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Mick, what you were doing in that video felt right enough to me. I have nothing to add.

A good percentage of movement on the backhand can come from leaning on the legs and sometimes you need to move a bit. Context is everything.

Now play Ma Long a match and let's see if it all works. You've had you 26 seconds of training.

Mick, if by some chance you are now posting to chuckle at the responses (including mine), you are now my hero. Either way, please keep the videos coming.


Mickd has been posting videos on mytt for years. The mytt crowd is far tougher than I can be on my worst days with a bad mood and a coronavirus scare. You underestimate his resolve. He is not your usual video learner.


Why didn't you say so earlier Laj? Let's really hammer the guy then and show him some OOAK pain!


Not sure what would hammer someone like Mick? Maybe some comments on how bad his clothes look? OR that he needs a new haircut?

More seriously, online technical discussion is not for everyone. Even I have moments when I can't take it and moments when I can. I keep looking at Tom Lodziak's video on what Rade Markovic told him to fix. And then the comments likely mostly by people who don't play half as well as Tom does. IF you watch Tom's videos, you know he has to be a great guy to post that kind of stuff. And now he clearly has a following as well since he now gets better players to show up on the videos as well.

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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2020, 03:58 
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mickd wrote:
BH Against Under Side View:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsShdzxBys8

Cheers.


It's new and sometimes you don't look quite smooth (some look pretty good!) but learning this will aid you in whatever version of the shot you end up with. Perhaps it ends up being a much smaller motion in matches or maybe it makes your backhand loop vs backspin become slightly more consistent. Learning these body motions and how it can aid shot production is really useful. Now is a great time to experiment, right?


Doing the 2020 03 backhand (slightly wrong yes) has remarkably made my backhand block turn into a monster. It's likely I'm doing too much of the 04 when I'm trying to do the 03 but having the 04 is pretty awesome. Not much is getting past my backhand now and my re-direction is really improving too. It will be nice when I get a chance to try it against better players. The same old guys is all I get to see for a while. We play TT when it is still dark and return to isolation as the sun rises.


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