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PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 14:33 
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BRS wrote:
Playing forward into the ball.


Mostly this, on both BH & FH. I brush the ball too much.

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PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 12:20 
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I was showing my training partner my attempt of bolls forehand due to the fact that he has hip rotational issues. I thought this would be a good shot for him to copy as boll only rotates 45 degrees and really delays the backswing.

The funny thing was the fact that my spin level was higher than my normal more hip rotational forehand and the speed was not much lower.

I can see advantages of using this stroke compared to trying to rotate more. Faster to set up, longer spotting the ball onto the bat leading to less errors, less footwork needed to rotate etc.

At my level I think I do not need a full rotational forehand for that extra power.

Brett tells me that delaying the backswing is a big part of the puzzle.


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 00:20 
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Speaking about training. Here is a snapshot of my FH. Do I use my legs correctly?


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 03:26 
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Dr.Pivot wrote:
Speaking about training. Here is a snapshot of my FH. Do I use my legs correctly?



Looks good to me. I guess you could load up your leg and glute a little more, but it seems to me like you are pushing off correctly. Maybe this is a small detail that isn't important for most players, but something I thought of a while ago that I found interesting is the way players push off. The way ML has his weight on kind of the heel/backside of his right foot for the backswing in the pic below hopefully shows what I mean. Then the push for the forward swing kind of rolls the foot onto the frontside/ball toe area. It's subtle..

https://imgur.com/a/QiJP2LS

I think when people are told to load the glute and quads this mostly happens automatically. To me it feels like doing it the way I described loads the quads and glute a bit more. It looks to me like you're doing it right and could do a little more of it. If I complicated it, ignore what I said and keep practicing it the way you are :D


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PostPosted: 28 Jul 2021, 06:43 
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Its a nice forehand and I feel you use your body well. :)

However, I think you are not getting enough power from the ground concept.

To do this, as Richfs has mentoned, I feel you need to be more aggressive with your push off the right leg. I feel you are pushing your body up from the legs a bit too much rather than a more sideways push to rotate the body which leaves the knees bent. Look at Ma Long.

I am working on this too in my own game. I like to think (imagine) of rotating the ground clockwise under my right foot to achieve this foot action. So it is more a push of the right side of the foot. Look at pros shoes. They always wear on the right side of the shoe (for the right shoe and right handed.)

From my training with Brett I do have a suggestion that maybe could add 20% more power and spin.

This is a big change to your body mechanics and you might not want such a large change.

This change allows the power from the ground to be fully applied to the swing speed, more effortlessly.

So it is another piece of the puzzle ;)

To do this you could delay the backswing more and then have the backswing go against the body rotating forward. This effortlessly creates whip and racket speed. So the body rotates forward first before the backswing ends.

You can feel the delay and it feels like the body is moving the arm a lot more than an a normal forehand. Brett's swing the bear arm video for reference. The forehand is more like a serve action.

My new mantra is spot the ball onto the racket that causes a delay of the backswing in all strokes. I can do it in training but it falls away in matches. :envy:

I look forward to Bretts comments.


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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 00:53 
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Thank you for your comments! I have been thinking about it, and I agree that I probably should push off with my legs more. But I kind of struggle to concentrate on it in practice. It is a very subtle movement, and I often lose it when I concentrate too much on getting the ball back. I wish I could do some multiball to get a better feeling for it, but it is not going to happen anytime soon.

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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 09:28 
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Quote:
It is a very subtle movement
.
Sorry I think I will have to disagree. The push off the right leg is fast and aggressive. You are trying to rotate your body anticlockwise as fast as possible.


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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2021, 18:13 
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maurice101 wrote:
Quote:
It is a very subtle movement
.
Sorry I think I will have to disagree. The push off the right leg is fast and aggressive. You are trying to rotate your body anticlockwise as fast as possible.


Maybe I did not use the right word, probably "elusive" is better one.

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PostPosted: 01 Aug 2021, 06:13 
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Yes you just have to drive the leg drive of the forehand into muscle memory. Again and again. That is assuming you have good rotation!!!

Table tennis is such fun hey!

Subtle and hard to see is the forward movement of the body as the bat is in a backswing.

This is very hard to teach to adult players who been using their arm to generate bat speed rather than the correct body mechanics.

Ma Longs slow motion videos of opening up against backspin is the easiest way to show the delay between body going up and bat going up later.

The quality of my backhand topspin is heaps better when I use this mechanics. Delay the backswing, body going up as bat is going down in backswing results in a good whip and a high quality shot.


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PostPosted: 02 Aug 2021, 22:43 
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Brett Clarke wrote:
If someone counters my loop, I then imagine myself playing the same loop with more spin and them missing it.

If you are reading this post, you can probably loop with enough spin to make me miss the counter the majority of the time. You probably won't do a loop with enough spin because you are scared of playing me. Your arm will lock up and slow down before impact. Your timing won't be optimal and there will be another thousands micro problems that we will never understand. This all makes me your resistance. Resistance is what you don't feel against a robot. Without resistance, my serve is almost unplayable, even for players slightly above my level. With heavy resistance, like playing Ma Lin or other world top 20 players, my serve never had spin.

I'll give you a place to start. Before serving, think deeply about the position of the serve and the stupid error you'd like your opponent to make. Then serve aggressively and try to complete the picture. I have just given you a job to do before points so you don't have time to get all negative about life. Don't forget about the stupid error because that will break some of the resistance.

Is the above considered mediation NextLevel? I'm enjoying your input, btw. I'm thinking about adding Yoga Nidra to my off-table sessions, based on your input. It means I'd do Yoga Nidra before imagining myself beat the hell out of my opponents. Here is a sample of Yoga Nindra for those who are curious



I think what you wrote above is, though I can understand why one might not consider it so and might consider me to be abusing the concept of meditation. The Yoga Nidra is the traditional stuff, but let's take a look of what you are doing (which is somewhere between cognitive therapy and meditation).

You are realizing that your perception of reality is not the same as reality.
You need to put yourself in a mental state that enables you to play your best table tennis.
You are recalling things mindfully to create that mental state, choosing what to focus on, rather than letting yourself lapse into self defeating thoughts.

These are things that for some people need some practice. For other, it may come more naturally. But the main thing good meditation teaches is the ability to reduce the suffering caused by the overt focus on the illusion of the self. It's not going to happen smoothly for everyone. I don't even think it will guarantee that you win. But it does make your table tennis feel less random IMHO.

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2021, 05:38 
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I'll play for the first time since camp tomorrow night in Potomac, assuming Delta hasn't closed the Community Ctr. I like NL's CBT idea. I will use it to better adapt my bh to reality.

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PostPosted: 06 Aug 2021, 01:59 
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I played seven matches against three different old guys with three different weird penhold styles. I got my body behind the ball a little more often than before, and my bh was good enough. The CBT is working! Therapy will continue Saturday morning at the same club.

My forehand also needs CBT. Often the ball goes out and makes me sad. Forehands going out is too overwhelming a problem for me, so I will deal with it in a more positive way by breaking it down into smaller parts. The first part is to bend my knees during play. If I can do that some of the time I will be happy, and it is okay that the ball still goes out. The CBT is working!!

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2021, 13:50 
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BRS do you have some forward lean at the end of the backswing for your forehand? I find if I do not do this then the balls can go out. I am trying to lower my stance at present so this is easier. A lot of adult learners are too upright in their forehand.


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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2021, 01:04 
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NextLevel wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
If someone counters my loop, I then imagine myself playing the same loop with more spin and them missing it.

If you are reading this post, you can probably loop with enough spin to make me miss the counter the majority of the time. You probably won't do a loop with enough spin because you are scared of playing me. Your arm will lock up and slow down before impact. Your timing won't be optimal and there will be another thousands micro problems that we will never understand. This all makes me your resistance. Resistance is what you don't feel against a robot. Without resistance, my serve is almost unplayable, even for players slightly above my level. With heavy resistance, like playing Ma Lin or other world top 20 players, my serve never had spin.

I'll give you a place to start. Before serving, think deeply about the position of the serve and the stupid error you'd like your opponent to make. Then serve aggressively and try to complete the picture. I have just given you a job to do before points so you don't have time to get all negative about life. Don't forget about the stupid error because that will break some of the resistance.

Is the above considered mediation NextLevel? I'm enjoying your input, btw. I'm thinking about adding Yoga Nidra to my off-table sessions, based on your input. It means I'd do Yoga Nidra before imagining myself beat the hell out of my opponents. Here is a sample of Yoga Nindra for those who are curious



I think what you wrote above is, though I can understand why one might not consider it so and might consider me to be abusing the concept of meditation. The Yoga Nidra is the traditional stuff, but let's take a look of what you are doing (which is somewhere between cognitive therapy and meditation).

You are realizing that your perception of reality is not the same as reality.
You need to put yourself in a mental state that enables you to play your best table tennis.
You are recalling things mindfully to create that mental state, choosing what to focus on, rather than letting yourself lapse into self defeating thoughts.

These are things that for some people need some practice. For other, it may come more naturally. But the main thing good meditation teaches is the ability to reduce the suffering caused by the overt focus on the illusion of the self. It's not going to happen smoothly for everyone. I don't even think it will guarantee that you win. But it does make your table tennis feel less random IMHO.


This and a few other posts brought me some very useful realizations.

I criticize myself between points and lapse into self-defeating thoughts. Wondering why might be interesting and I often ask myself that, but it's besides the point.
Whether it's useful or logical to be doing this is also besides the point. It made me wonder who I'm criticizing, I realized that there is no answer to that question and that it is just another thought.
I've think I've for the first time experienced the illusion of the self and I now see the point of meditation and how it reduces unnecessary suffering. And I can now see how it can be used and practiced for situations where it's needed the most, which is where I've always failed to apply it.. and I believe that is because I've been asking the wrong questions.
I'm not sure it will make me play better table tennis, maybe, maybe not. But I think it's at least a start to lapse into self-defeating thoughts a bit less and redirect my attention. Which is useful for much more than table tennis.

Thanks a lot NL! Please, keep the wisdom going! :D


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PostPosted: 08 Aug 2021, 03:44 
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maurice101 wrote:
BRS do you have some forward lean at the end of the backswing for your forehand? I find if I do not do this then the balls can go out. I am trying to lower my stance at present so this is easier. A lot of adult learners are too upright in their forehand.


Thanks maurice101, standing up straight is a problem for me.

This morning in the first matches I was often bending my knees. It helped my fh and it also made my tactics better. Like on a short serve to the fh, deciding whether to push short, push long, fh flick or bh flick, bent knees helped with those decisions. I was happy with my play.

My first opponent was also happy with my play. He asked me to train with him on Monday evening at a different community center TT session which I did not know about.

After the first hour my legs got tired and I bent my knees less often, so my play declined. That was expected and did not make me sad. The more I play with bent knees the easier it will become to continue.

For the first time we also had to play wearing masks. That was hot and sweaty, and somewhat hard to breathe. But it didn't upset me. Everyone had to play in the same conditions. The CBT is working.

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