OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 29 Mar 2024, 14:19


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 06:38 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
I have long looked for the reason that long pips are helpful for choppers. Almost all the top choppers in the world use pips on one side, so I figured there HAD to be an advantage. I was unable to find all my answers in one location. So after much research, and testing things on my own, I think I have come up with the actual physics as to why most choppers use pips on one side. Here are my findings. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

This information has been reorganized and better explained here: https://merelytheories.blogspot.com/2021/08/why-do-choppers-use-long-pips.html

I have removed the original post, and encourage you to visit the link above to see the original content of the post. It is much better organized and written out.


Last edited by force2brw on 12 Aug 2021, 23:15, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 12:35 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 12 Sep 2009, 02:54
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I just wanted to commend you for this well thought out and constructive input. combining this with roundrobin's following and equally cogent observations may be of aid to the wouldbe koji

begin roundrobin quote

- Long pips allow you to chop during any stage of the incoming ball's flight:  off the bounce, on the rise, and on the drop.

-Short pips will not allow you to chop block on the table consistently.  You must chop at the highest point or on the drop.

-Inverted (not anti) will not allow you to chop any incoming topspin ball except on the drop.  Consequently it will require you to be able to move back extremely quickly.  

As you can see, long pips are by far the most versatile rubber for a chopper to cover all distances.

If you can move back fast enough to chop every topspin on the drop with the inverted, then I say go for it.  Otherwise you will be caught on the table blocking a 3rd ball blast from your opponent, not chopping, I'll guarantee you that.  (There's nothing wrong with blocking with inverted at the table, but then that wouldn't be chopping.)  The higher the level, the harder it is to convert strong incoming topspin to underspin chops, but it's far easier to block over the table with inverted.  Of all rubber types, long pips are the best at converting topspin to underspin (along with anti).  It's what they are designed to do.  So the question is not whether a pro needs long pips... It is "which is the best for the task of converting incoming topspin to underspin?"  The answer is long pips.  The vast majority of top men's choppers use long pips (not short pips), because the men's game is a lot faster and more spinny than women's, so they need all the help they can get to cover the entire table effectively.  It's not because these rubbers are "weird" to confuse the opponent, it's because they are the best at chopping and converting topspin to underspin during all stages of the incoming ball's flight.

end roundrobin quote

for me, i've switched to double inverted chopping and when my blade speed can't meet or exceed the ball's rotational speed select a more aggressive stroke

regards


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 12:46 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
I also used this quote as part of my research, so I'm glad you found it, as I couldn't remember where or who said that. But it was one of the more useful bits of information that I found when I first was searching for reasons that long pips help choppers. I do want to point out one thing about his quote:

vimwick wrote:
-Inverted (not anti) will not allow you to chop any incoming topspin ball except on the drop.  Consequently it will require you to be able to move back extremely quickly.  


I believe there is a typo in this part of the quote. I think he means to say, "...you to chop any incoming topspin ball except off the bounce."

This would make sense both based on the rest of what he said, and from my findings. He said that you have to get backwards quickly in order to chop with inverted. If off the table, you would be chopping on the drop, and that is also the most consistent place to chop using inverted (on the drop). So I just want to point that out so no one gets confused.

Thank you for finding this quote, as it was definitely one of the few posts/pages/etc. that helped give me some idea of why so many choppers used long pips.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 13:06 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
vimwick wrote:
for me, i've switched to double inverted chopping and when my blade speed can't meet or exceed the ball's rotational speed select a more aggressive stroke

regards


I have also started moving to this method for my forehand. I have inverted on my forehand, long pips on backhand. I sometimes try to chop incoming balls on my forehand when I'm too close to the table. This leads to an inconsistent chop. Now that I found out how and why there is this inconsistency, I have moved to using topspin with my forehand if I find myself close or even medium distance from the table. However, I have also found that I do not always need to use an aggressive attack swing. If the incoming ball is not one that I think I can aggressively attack with high consistency, I will go for a spinny topspin loop instead. I have found that giving someone and extra spinny topspin loop can give them as many problems as underspin balls sometimes. They still have to read the amount of spin correctly, and they don't always do that. If you also vary that up with some quicker shots, lesser spin shots or side spin shots, you can keep good attackers from just blasting your topspin shots because they might be wary about hitting it off the table/into the net.

Once I am far back enough that I can safely chop, I go back to chopping. But now I'll throw a spinny topspin loop in from time to time just to change things up. Of course, as many choppers are, I'm still working at developing a good, consistent offense in order to put the points away when I create poor shots from my opponent.

I've found that, as a chopper, there are two things I ALWAYS have to be better at than my opponent if I want to continue to get better and become more successful: 1) I MUST be the most patient, 2) I MUST be the most consistent. Being the most focused is also a major factor, but it's one that really makes sense for any player, and isn't specific to choppers. If I can do those two things, I can often beat players rated higher than me. But as soon as I start losing patience, or start trying lower percentage shots just because (and not with a specific goal or reason in mind), that is when you become just an average player, and not an above average chopper. Focus on your strengths, and minimize your weaknesses while playing, and work on your weaknesses while making your strengths bullet proof in practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 13:11 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 12 Sep 2009, 02:54
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
you may have missed the 'not' before 'allow' in roundrobin's comment. ie, in a pragmatic sense, you can only chop on the drop with inverted

regards

ps, of course, I could be mistaken ;-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2016, 13:15 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
Ah yes I did miss that. Now it makes perfect sense, and is very much correct. Thanks for pointing that out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 13:53 
Online
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 33337
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 2741 times
Been thanked: 1548 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dr N Troublemaker OX
Very nice summary force2brw! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I particularly like how you've categorised the LPs into low, medium and high friction, and have explained what they're good for! :up:

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 17:49 
Offline
Count Darkula
Count Darkula
User avatar

Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 15:07
Posts: 17502
Location: Dark side of Australia!!
Has thanked: 422 times
Been thanked: 292 times
Blade: Bty Gergely T5000
FH: TSP Regalis Blue Max
BH: Tibhar Grass Dtecs
A very nice explanation. Maybe it will help pull a few more over to the dark side :devil: :lol:

Perhaps we should incorporate an explanation of how pips help blocking and angling. I'd write it if I could be bothered :P :lol:

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! :twisted: Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 23:11 
Offline
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 13:38
Posts: 2524
Location: Washington DC
Has thanked: 563 times
Been thanked: 512 times
Blade: Koji Matsushita
FH: Tibhar MX-S Max
BH: Yasaka Rising Dragon 2.0
Very nice! Since this is sort of a primer for those who aren't familiar with LPs, it might be worth mentioning some of the other variables.

You mention the differences between high friction and low friction LPs. This of course is also influenced by the sponge softness and thickness.

And further confusing things, there are also lower frictions pips which have thicker sponges, which usually puts them in the mild grip category (Such as Dtecs with thicker sponge, which Joo Se Hyuk uses when he's not using P-1R)

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!"

Projects: Player Equipment Grid
Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2016, 21:20 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 4070
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1209 times
Been thanked: 581 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: TSP P1-R 1,5 B
Why not sticky this?

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 00:31 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
I just want to say, I love the fact that Joo Se Hyuk is still the players used in the top graphic of this forum, even tho he is basically retired at this point from what I can tell. A great chopper never dies...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 04:28 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 07 Jun 2016, 02:58
Posts: 12
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 11 times
RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
Perhaps we should incorporate an explanation of how pips help blocking and angling. I'd write it if I could be bothered :P :lol:


Please see my new post about Attacking/Blocking with Long Pips here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37736


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 06:17 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 4070
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1209 times
Been thanked: 581 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: TSP P1-R 1,5 B
force2brw wrote:
I just want to say, I love the fact that Joo Se Hyuk is still the players used in the top graphic of this forum, even tho he is basically retired at this point from what I can tell. A great chopper never dies...


I find that to be bad thing. It means we don't have a replacement for Joo yet. That's not a good sign for the defensive art.

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 06:32 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 20 Feb 2020, 12:11
Posts: 109
Location: USA
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 36 times
Blade: Defplay Senso
FH: Hurricane 3 Neo
BH: Stiga Vertical 20 0.5mm
Lorre wrote:
force2brw wrote:
I just want to say, I love the fact that Joo Se Hyuk is still the players used in the top graphic of this forum, even tho he is basically retired at this point from what I can tell. A great chopper never dies...


I find that to be bad thing. It means we don't have a replacement for Joo yet. That's not a good sign for the defensive art.


At least Filus played very well at the WTT event! Even if he couldn't close it out against Harimoto


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2021, 06:32 
Offline
Joo Too
Joo Too
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 18:31
Posts: 4070
Location: Dendermonde, Belgium
Has thanked: 1209 times
Been thanked: 581 times
Blade: BTY Joo Se Hyuk ST
FH: DHS Hurricane 3-50 soft R
BH: TSP P1-R 1,5 B
Hopsquatch wrote:
At least Filus played very well at the WTT event! Even if he couldn't close it out against Harimoto


Yes, that's a good thing, but Filus is no where near the level Joo was in his prime.

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group