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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 02:45 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
I have to disagree with the tenor of some of the comments being made here about this guy lacking talent because he's using what, in essence, is a frictionless or close-to-frictionless rubber.

To be clear, I play with 100% legal, untreated pips, despite the well-known fact that many inverted players regularly boost their rubbers. I would say that these inverted players who boost are cheaters, but I would never say that they lack talent if they compete at a high level. The same holds true of Federico Deym. He might be cheating if he's treating his long pips rubber, but if you think you can just get frictionless pips and quickly rise into the ranks of the table tennis elites, you have another thing coming. The suggestion that frictionless pips require no skill or talent to play is a total myth. Ask anyone here who previously played with such pips before the 2008 frictionless ban went into effect. You still have to recognize spin, have to know how to handle no-spin -- which is a vulnerability for this style of play -- have to have very quick reflexes and lots of touch and, in general, have to know what you're doing.

I play one guy at my club regularly who plays with a frictionless long-pips one-sided penhold blade. He uses an old Saviga V rubber that has zero friction, and he's been called on it at sanctioned tournaments more than once. He doesn't care. I beat this guy regularly because I understand what to do, but there are many double-inverted players who lose to him and, frankly, I don't feel like he's beating them by cheating, but rather, through a combination of his skill and their lack of understanding and strategy. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of those things where it's illegal because it's illegal (the questionable history of why frictionless pips were banned in part due to a petty personal between Dr. Neubauer and Eberhard Schoeler has been documented by others, so I won't go into it) but not because there's really anything wrong with it. So, personally, although I like to preserve the integrity of being able to say I play by the rules, I have no real issue with people who cheat to get around a silly rule that should never have been implemented. Nor do I think they lack talent!


...maybe, we have to redefine the idea behind talent .... maybe , we need to see how well he plays with a completely legal rubber,.. . then and only then will you be able to see his real talent ,..... maybe , you can read the comments he receives on youtube about his style,... many people I know quit tt after the frictionless pip ban because they just lived on spin reversal and started to become sitting ducks with no talent at all,....of course , you must read the ball , be it with friction or frictionless pips,....

... and this is not about being a hater,..this is about a player using an illegal rubber, period,.... , who is a great ambassador for people to hate the pimple players,..... this kind of players makes the inverted ones suspicious and casts the shadow of lies and cheating around the long pip world forever,period....

... it is sad there is a topìc dedicated to this kind of players,....they deserve isolation, not propaganda,....oh,... and it is nice for him to get around a silly rule, bravo!! but he must get around the rule at club level ,in non official competitions, in just recreational table tennis with friends ,.....


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 02:46 
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Traditional Tradesman - I recognize Deym's talent as well. You couldn't have said it better. :up:


Last edited by Robert90 on 11 Jul 2019, 09:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 05:11 
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charmander defender wrote:
...maybe, we have to redefine the idea behind talent .... maybe , we need to see how well he plays with a completely legal rubber,.. . then and only then will you be able to see his real talent ,..... maybe , you can read the comments he receives on youtube about his style,... many people I know quit tt after the frictionless pip ban because they just lived on spin reversal and started to become sitting ducks with no talent at all,....of course , you must read the ball , be it with friction or frictionless pips,....


I still disagree. If, hypothetically, I'd played all my life with frictionless and was, say, 60 years old at the time of the frictionless ban and couldn't adjust, that doesn't mean I wasn't skilled/talented. It just means that my technique is adapted to something that has been made illegal. So I don't think that seeing how Deym plays with legal pips would prove anything. If you take that argument to its logical conclusion, it would go like this, "You pips players aren't talented. Let's see how you'd play with regular inverted. Then we'll see if you can really play or not!" Obviously, that's a poor argument, and the one you're making is similar in its structure, in that your gauge of talent is whether someone can play with something completely different from the rubber they've adapted to.

charmander defender wrote:
... and this is not about being a hater,..this is about a player using an illegal rubber, period,.... , who is a great ambassador for people to hate the pimple players,..... this kind of players makes the inverted ones suspicious and casts the shadow of lies and cheating around the long pip world forever,period....


Again, what about all those inverted players who boost? It's FAR more widespread, especially among top players, than treating long pips. The not-so-great reputation pips players have is not because we cheat in any large numbers, but rather, simply because we play with something that's less common, that many inverted players don't like or understand and that regularly leads to defeat and frustration on their part.

charmander defender wrote:
... it is sad there is a topìc dedicated to this kind of players,....they deserve isolation, not propaganda,....oh,... and it is nice for him to get around a silly rule, bravo!! but he must get around the rule at club level ,in non official competitions, in just recreational table tennis with friends ,.....


Don't think so. To me, he's helping make a mockery of a silly, unenforceable rule that tried to destroy a whole style of play because of some internecine conflict between two individuals, one of whom had power within the ITTF. Personally, I choose to play legally, but I don't see Deym's choice as somehow morally inferior to mine. Players like him are the best hope of the ITTF ever reconsidering the ban.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 07:08 
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I still disagree. If, hypothetically, I'd played all my life with frictionless and was, say, 60 years old at the time of the frictionless ban and couldn't adjust, that doesn't mean I wasn't skilled/talented. It just means that my technique is adapted to something that has been made illegal. So I don't think that seeing how Deym plays with legal pips would prove anything. If you take that argument to its logical conclusion, it would go like this, "You pips players aren't talented. Let's see how you'd play with regular inverted. Then we'll see if you can really play or not!" Obviously, that's a poor argument, and the one you're making is similar in its structure, in that your gauge of talent is whether someone can play with something completely different from the rubber they've adapted to.


Again, what about all those inverted players who boost? It's FAR more widespread, especially among top players, than treating long pips. The not-so-great reputation pips players have is not because we cheat in any large numbers, but rather, simply because we play with something that's less common, that many inverted players don't like or understand and that regularly leads to defeat and frustration on their part.


Don't think so. To me, he's helping make a mockery of a silly, unenforceable rule that tried to destroy a whole style of play because of some internecine conflict between two individuals, one of whom had power within the ITTF. Personally, I choose to play legally, but I don't see Deym's choice as somehow morally inferior to mine. Players like him are the best hope of the ITTF ever reconsidering the ban.[/quote]

I seem to understand your reasoning, however, I do not agree with your defence of Federico Deym or the hypothetical arguments about playing legally,..... one thing is clear : Federico seems to be a cheater, hence, you are in favoiur of cheaters by argumenting that he makes a mockery of an unenforceable rule,.... I cannot believe you praise him like that ,....

Talking about talent is talking about being smart, having a plan B when your game does not work out,.... having more skills rather than just live on spin reversal and just pushing the ball to the corners,.... having talent is to have diffferent serves, short , long, mid distance to set up your strategy,.... Federico is monotonous,..same service, same strokes all the time until the opponent makes a mistake,..is this talent? I'd say,...he has just patience,....

Seeing him play with legal pips will prove how easily he will be beaten ,..... the argument about the pips players playing with inverted is not the same as playing with legal pips,...... there are pip players who adapted to the ban very well,.... I have never said all frictionless pips players were not talented,.... in fact, I have known some who are very skilled that attack with inverted and have different services and strateges in the game ,.....

I agree that cheating by inverted is far more widespread,.... but when they ask me about my setup, the first thing they do is to touch my pips and make faces , or complain because the rubber is old or dirty,.... like saying it looks treated,( and some do think the rubber is treated by their smirks ) ..when it clearly has friction,.... all this notoriety is thanks to people like Federico, to whom you so lovely defend,.. :clap:

.....we needn't players like Deym, sorry,.... who bring bad reputation to defenders,.... don't you think the ITTF knows that there are pros that cheat?,.... and those at minor leagues who use frictionless pips?,..of course they do,.... this is a circus,...

and sorry but yes it is immoral to cheat,.... in any aspect of life,....if you have a girlfriend or wife and you learn she is cheating on you, on the rules you both set up ,.. then,... you will defend her like Deym,.... "bringing honour and politeness to your relationship ......" .


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 07:42 
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You wrote that "I do not agree with your defence of Federico Deym or the hypothetical arguments about playing legally,..... one thing is clear : Federico seems to be a cheater, hence, you are in favoiur of cheaters by argumenting that he makes a mockery of an unenforceable rule,.... I cannot believe you praise him like that ,.... and sorry but yes it is immoral to cheat,.... in any aspect of life,...."

I don't think all "cheating" is equal. Deym is technically breaking the rules if he's treating his pips, just like someone using marijuana in many nations/states might be technically breaking the rules/laws. Personally, I don't break table tennis rules, and I don't use recreational drugs (other than caffeine) either. But I also have no problem with others who do. On the other hand, I DO have a problem with someone who cheats on a test, someone who cheats by lying about the score in a table tennis game or someone who cheats other people out of money. There are different levels of moral culpability in these scenarios for me. The reason I'm not bothered by what Deym is doing is that I see the rule against frictionless pips and the law against the use of marijuana as both silly rules that make life needlessly difficult for people. Any opponent is absolutely free to feel his racket and understand that those pips are frictionless (if that's what they are). There's no deception here. There's no cheating in the sense of tricking someone in some devious way. It's just a technical violation of a bad and unenforceable rule.

You wrote: "Talking about talent is talking about being smart, having a plan B when your game does not work out,.... having more skills rather than just live on spin reversal and just pushing the ball to the corners,.... having talent is to have diffferent serves, short , long, mid distance to set up your strategy,.... Federico is monotonous,..same service, same strokes all the time until the opponent makes a mistake,..is this talent? I'd say,...he has just patience,...."

Here's a question: if you saw a powerful, fast, skilled two-winged looper who tried to loop the heck out of every ball, would you call that style monotonous or question the player's talent? Maybe you would. I don't know. But somehow, I doubt it. I agree Deym is very one-dimensional. He has basically two shots (block against topspin and aggressive push against underspin), and he does them again and again, while trying to maneuver his opponent out of position and force an error. But doing that well involves skill. Like you, I prefer watching someone with a more varied and dynamic game. That goes for BOTH Deym and the hypothetical two-winged looper I described. But that doesn't mean these players aren't talented.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 07:42 
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Hi guys,

I am still waiting for the 2019 ITTF AGM & BoD minutes to come out so that I can approach my national association about 2 sets of rule changes:
1. Either remove the minimum friction rule for pimple rubbers or instate it properly (read testing for it at tournaments) for both pimple and smooth rubbers.
2. Either remove the ban on player administered boosting or ban all (read manufacturer) boosting.

I believe that this would resolve a lot of player angst. Whether it would also make table tennis more popular and help bring about world peace is open to debate.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 09:28 
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Charmander Defender, I’m sorry, but what you wrote doesn’t make much sense. If the corrupt ITTF, for one reason or another, decides to outlaw inverted rubbers tomorrow so everybody plays hard bat, I’m sure millions of loopers will just quit the game because their skill level will go to zero. The fact that they outlawed frictionless or changed the balls just shows how corrupt the organization is and has absolutely nothing to do with the players’ skill level...


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 10:26 
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Federico's play may not be entertaining but appears very effective and I must honestly say this topic has certainly put a cat amongst the pigeons. :!:


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 12:44 
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Is it just me who has noticed that charmander defender has exposed himself as a frustrated player with some anger issues? For God's sake, stop hating! Just live and let live.


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 18:41 
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Good day everyone ! First of all I want to make clear I am not a hater at all . I am sorry If I convey this to some of you. Secondly, I am at peace with the world and with all of you who disagree with me; it is understandable and logical we have different points of view ....

.... this topic has been great so we can discuss about integrity , respect , loyalty , and moral standards and also , to debate what we can understand as a skilled or talented player ,..... I do respect your views but I will never ever defend cheating whether it is reasonable or to mock an unenforceable law,... cheating has low vibration, it is negative energy, therefore , it does not benefit the tt community at all .....

... yes, I do not like the fact that people is suspicious of my setup , just because I use pips and this regrettable attitude from opponents is caused by players who cheat ...... I repeat, I don´t like this, but I am ok in my world ,.... there may be different levels of morality but one thing is certain : cheating is not positive , hence, cheating will never be justified ,.....having a treated rubber and compete in an official tournament just shows how false and untrue one is ....

.....a powerful, fast, skilled two-winged looper who tried to loop the heck out of every ball has strategy, is willing to take risks, takes the initiative, knows the right time to attack, hence intelligent,..... Deym has the great skill of being patient and trusts his opponent will make a mistake in the end, takes zero risks and that´s all he has to offer ,.... , which of course, is a valuable, acceptable way of playing ,.... but for me, that is not talent or quality of playing ,.....

..... well , if someone thinks I am frustrated or with anger issues, ok, that's fine, think what you will,.... but the more you think of this, the less you know me,.....I just say it is incredible that there are people who support or defend cheaters,.... and any negativity thrown at me by any of you here will make zero impact on me,... I know who I am ,.... just we diagree on some points,.. fine,....

.... I would just like any of you to be respectful, that's all,..and to use the right words ,... words also have energy,... be careful when you use unkind words because the first to be adversely affected is you ,....


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 18:46 
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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 20:19 
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Robert90 wrote:
Is it just me who has noticed that charmander defender has exposed himself as a frustrated player with some anger issues? For God's sake, stop hating! Just live and let live.

It is a well known rhetoric turn, when you don't have any more arguments to attack the issues addressed by your opponent, you attack/discredit the opponent's person instead.

A few participants in this thread have turned to that.

As I see it, there are two opposing strategies discussed here:
  • Play by what you think makes sense, and bend the rules because you know "everyone" else does
  • Play "by the book" even if you disagree with some of the rules in that book.
Those who play by the book will see the rule benders as having an unfair advantage. Sure, it can make you frustrated, even angry, but that doesn't mean frustration and anger issues is what defines you as a person.
The rule benders consider that they are leveling the playing field, equalizing everyone else's unfair advantage.
Both positions are perfectly valid. Attacking the other's personal integrity because you disagree with their position in the case is not.

In this case, with the subject at hand, "Live and let live" is just an euphemism for "cheat and let cheat". As Charmander D said before, your choice of words, also those between the lines, reflects first and foremost on yourself.


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2019, 01:58 
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You can't control or change what players do. I'm guessing that some of you are not fans of Olivier Mader either, the most outspoken long pips player on the subject (and just like Deym, a talented player as well.) In general, players who are frustrated with their game are very judgmental. So, you can continue to judge, but it wont' change anything... Life goes on...


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2019, 02:03 
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charmander defender wrote:
... yes, I do not like the fact that people is suspicious of my setup , just because I use pips and this regrettable attitude from opponents is caused by players who cheat


Inverted players can also say that suspicion is cast upon them by other inverted players who illegally boost (which is super common at higher levels). But, in the end, you're responsible for your own actions, not anyone else's.

charmander defender wrote:
.....a powerful, fast, skilled two-winged looper who tried to loop the heck out of every ball has strategy, is willing to take risks, takes the initiative, knows the right time to attack, hence intelligent,..... Deym has the great skill of being patient and trusts his opponent will make a mistake in the end, takes zero risks and that´s all he has to offer ,.... , which of course, is a valuable, acceptable way of playing ,.... but for me, that is not talent or quality of playing ,.....


You called Federico Deym's style "monotonous" (I assume) because he uses, in essence, two shots, the long pips block and the long pips attacking push (he throws in other shots and occasional inverted pushes and loops, but these are rare enough not to matter). So I asked you what you would say about the style of a two-winged looper who tries to loop everything. Such a looper also basically uses two shots (forehand loop and backhand loop), and of course, he pushes occasionally when he has no other choice. You distinguished this player by saying he "has strategy, is willing to take risks, takes the initiative, knows the right time to attack, hence intelligent...." I'm not sure why trying to loop everything is strategy or intelligence, whereas trying to block everything with long pips and then tactically pushing your opponent into inconvenient and awkward locations where he's either going to miss or else return a weak shot you can loop or smash is monotonous, but look, you're absolutely entitled to prefer or respect one style to the other. Personally, however, I think if everyone played like the two-winged looper, table tennis would be boring and monotonous, and if everyone played like Deym, table tennis would be boring and monotonous. What makes the game great (and far superior to regular tennis, in my own opinion) is the sheer variety of styles, including those styles, like Deym's, made possible by a variety of rubbers.

The fact that some short-sighted technocrats with personal grudges happened to ban frictionless long pips is not significant to me as long as Deym's opponent has every opportunity to inspect Deym's rubber and understand what he's up against. Again, personally, I play within the rules (and play much more aggressively than Deym with my pips), but I respect his choice and think players like him make the game more interesting while preserving a style that the ITTF pointlessly tried to ban.

I also want to respond to one thing Keme wrote:

keme wrote:
As I see it, there are two opposing strategies discussed here:
Play by what you think makes sense, and bend the rules because you know "everyone" else does
Play "by the book" even if you disagree with some of the rules in that book.


I just want to clarify that I do not believe it's okay to "bend the rules because you know 'everyone' else does." My personal approach, as I've stressed, is to play with perfectly legal and untreated long pips. What I've also said, however, is that it doesn't bother me that some other long pips players, especially those who spent most of their playing days in the past using frictionless long pips, decided to stick with frictionless, and it doesn't bother me because it's not like there's some big secret here or some style than no one can defeat. The opponent can inspect Deym's rubber, understand what he's playing against, and then may the better player win. There's no real "cheating" here in the sense of an unfair advantage (which, by the way, there is MUCH more of when an inverted player boosts). In addition, as I've stressed, I think having players like Deym around to make a mockery of an unenforceable rule and keep alive a style of table tennis is a good thing. I enjoy playing against frictionless pips players myself and wouldn't want to see this style disappear.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2019, 04:19 
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I really understand your point of view ..... I do not hate Deym ,... just say it is not right what he or anybody like him does in the tt world...... make the game more interesting? ....mmm,...well, it seems our points of view are opposed,..., which is fine,.... your arguments sound all right but all I can say is cheating or just support cheating is against human integrity ,... cheating is positive or negative? .... for me it is always negative however much you want to justify it ,....

..... Deym's style has a place in the tt world? of course,.... cheating must not ...I repeat your arguments are great,..... but never will they validate cheating .... what is your essence as a human being? truth or lies? .... truth , right? ,... we can respect Deym's decision but supporting cheating is a horse of a different colour ....

I am so glad you have decided not to cheat ,....because it is really tempting,... but your higher self inside you says : that is not the right way to go in life! ......


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