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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 21:40 
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Lorre wrote:
Thank you for the interesting post, Snowman. I wonder: how old are you?


Nearly 31, but probably sound older with thr hardbat talk lol. I had the pleasure of meeting Marty Reisman and even had him stay with my family for a week or so when I'd only been playing for a bit. Was using sponge at thr time (started with hardbat though, following guidance from my dad) but was influenced by Marty and the feelings I got from playing a hardbat tournament to continue with it. Also used a hardbat made by him.

Looking back, I would not say it was a mistake, but definitely a mistake to stick with it for so long. It built a lot of skills though as couldn't rely on equipment for anything. Rubbers I was using weren't overly spinny so couldn't rely on many free points from services or being able able to attack/fish away from the table. Either attacked off the top of the bounce of chopped far from the table and relied heavily on varying thr spin. Just sending it back gets you killed against anyone any good.

So when I finally made the switch back to smooth rubber on forehand, I'm getting a ton of spin, so much on chops most net thr first ball, and so many attacking and defensive options. Can get free points from services. Can open up from anywhere now. Long pips are ridiculously steady against strong attacks.

I am as I've said still thinking about short pips though. Sounds like Spectol would be thr short pip too. But I might be isolating the spin variation and attacking options and not considering the drawbacks enough. I'll keep checking in with your blog and probably try Spectol next year sometime, but want to test Horizontal 55 1.5mm first.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 22:32 
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Lorre, as you're switching from P1r 1.5mm, which I currently use, very keen to read your thoughts here.

You say that Spectol has some reversal, which I find both odd and interesting, with it being a short pip.
I'm going to just assume it's good to attack with, and push with. So this leaves the chopping. I'm also going to assume it chops well when you're in position, as never had issues chopping with short pip ox it 802 1.5mm when in position. So whst about the more uncomfortable situations where you're stretched out wide or your opponent drills it into thr body? Whst about heavy loopers? Last point, how consistent is your choppong thus far next to P1r?

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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 05:21 
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I've used the spectol a good deal and currently have spectol red on my smashing setup. It can be slick on real light touches where spin is potentially reversed. That being the case, it wont generate as much spin as other short pips. Its harder to push with heavy spin also.

Good at attacking and can generate a decent amount of spin. Some people have tried it and given up because the spin was too hard to create for them.

To throw another wrench into the works... rubbers like spinlord gipfelsturm are considered long pips, but have very stiff and grippy pips so it plays more like a short. It generates perhaps a tad less than spectol but ie also more forgiving. To me it's probably one of the best that falls right on the line of short pip and long pip characteristics.

All of the rubbers chop well enough... when in position! Inverted and everything else also. I didnt use it too long on the backhand, but when caught out of position I treated it like inverted to a degree. A sort of downward slap motion covering the top of the ball. It sends back a dead float generally but if you can keep it low, you wont be killed. But if the person is a power looper, be prepared to haul ass to the other side of the table haha

I also think that's why some people prefer inverted on the backhand. If they can't chop the ball, they will lob or fish it back instead. With short pips you get perhaps a bit more forgiveness with chops, but give up the spin for lobs and fishes. Because the amount of wiggle room for chopping between sp and inverted is not all that great.

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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 12:04 
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Lorre wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Are you finding that your bh short pips is causing more points from inducing errors? Or not much different so far? Can you do the spin variation for more points now, basically.


It depends on the opponent. Those who had trouble with my LP, are still making errors against my SP, mostly due to spin variation. That's very obvious against attacking players. You can give a high quality ball, but now they don't know what's coming at them. Spinny players who weren't bothered by my LP aren't bothered by my SP. Spinless type of players are having more difficulty, especially if you go attacking mode with the BH.



Then are you about equaling out so far? Just trading which set of players are weak/strong against each type of pip? :lol: :lol:

I was hoping to hear your sp was the miracle rubber and encourage me to stay with it!

I'm still leaning toward the twiddling route. Focusing on the consistent lp defense with a few shots that I'm good twiddling at tossed in. I like the idea of sp since you can vary without twiddling and that gives extra deception... since they never know how to adjust based on the rubber alone.

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 08:05 
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Snowman89 wrote:
Lorre, as you're switching from P1r 1.5mm, which I currently use, very keen to read your thoughts here.

You say that Spectol has some reversal, which I find both odd and interesting, with it being a short pip.
I'm going to just assume it's good to attack with, and push with. So this leaves the chopping. I'm also going to assume it chops well when you're in position, as never had issues chopping with short pip ox it 802 1.5mm when in position. So whst about the more uncomfortable situations where you're stretched out wide or your opponent drills it into thr body? Whst about heavy loopers? Last point, how consistent is your choppong thus far next to P1r?


Well, heavy slow loopers aren't the real problem. You can manipulate the ball then with enough wrist. Heavy fast loopers are a problem, though. I encountered one this week and I didn't stand a chance. A fast, heavy loop requires good positioning and good timing. It might be, however, I'm used to LP and just use the reversal of it to tame a fast heavy loop.

My chopping is quite consistent - as consistent as with P1-R - when being confronted with a decent loop. However, once the speed and spin goes up, I struggle with being out of position and the lack of dampening in the Spectol sponge. It's better with P1-R, but not by much. So a part of it comes down to a lack of technique on my part.

If the ball is played into your body, you can use sidespin and a fast wrist snap to create a chop with a lot of side and a bit of back. When stretched out it's important to use a wrist snap or get the angle of the SP right to send back a floater.

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 09:29 
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A lot has happened this week. I played two matches this week: one with three single games and another with four.

The first match didn't go too well. We encountered the second ranked team in our division. I lost to two heavy spin players. The first one, a lot higher ranked than me, pushed heavy and I couldn't keep up with his consistency and I'd made too many errors when attacking. I could keep up with the second one, around my level, in the short game, but once he looped it was game over.

However, I only lost 2-3 against my arch rival. This guy just serves quite spinless to my pocket and spins the return. He's ranked equally high as the first spin player. However, now I just hit through his serves and I hit through his pushed returns on my serve. I lost 2-3 after winning the first two games. I scared him alright! :lol: To be honest: I lost the game. In the fourth it was 9-9 I went on the attack of one of his pushes and I clipped the net. If that went on the table, the game might have been mine.

Although I had a good time, attacking so much just isn't me. It didn't feel right. So I removed the Spectol and I glued P4 1,5mm on my racket. Yes, a LP.

The training on Thursday wasn't intense at all, but it just felt sooooooooooooooooo goooooooooooooooooooood! I'm officially an LP addict now! :rofl: All fell into place again; I just couldn't miss. Well, not until I switched from defense to attack. Attacking with LP is just so damn difficult. The ball floats too much.

P4 can be considered a P1-R, but with more grip in the short game, more dampening in the long game, more difference between float and heavy back and a lower throw angle than P1-R. A bit more spin sensitive, though!

I played my four games on Friday with P4. I lost to a defender I never lose to and lost to the three attackers. However, I felt I played my game again.

I think I'm going to give P4 a longer try this time and see how it behaves in the short game and in the attacking department. One thing I noticed already is that it's better to spin the ball when attacking than hitting it.

However, if I learned anything from this SP episode, it's that good loopers don't have a problem wth backspin pushes. If anything they are more troubled by the less spinny pushes from a LP. LP also dampens a lot more, necessary in the current game.

Twiddling to attack might be viable, but I don't know how to make the decision yet when to twiddle. I can do it, however, but it's not drilled into my game plan yet.

I'm in lala land at the moment. :D I'm considering two options:

--> go with a more grippy LP, probably P4 in 1,5mm then.
--> go with a SP with thinner sponge, 1,0mm, and a dampening sponge. SSPC II. I think Spectol even in 1,0mm will still be too springy.

@skilless_slapper: Yes, I'm equalling out so far. I'm might trade again, though! :lol:

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 14:36 
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:lol: :lol: I can imagine the frustration looking down at your paddle as you tear the SP off, going in search of your LP rubbers -- been there many times!

Might have to change your blog name now, too :rofl:

Now here's a question -- I had considered going the SP route for a more classical defense game. Relying on spin variations and such to win points. But it seems that with your SP you were actually becoming MORE offensive? Having to hit the balls to scare them off. And if that's the case, then the SP is garbage for me anyway since I can't attack off the backhand with top spin anymore.

Not sure you saw my recommendation to snowman of stiga horiztonal 55, if you want a very grippy LP on a hard sponge. As opposed to the pillow soft p4 variety.

I had a similar predicament as you... watching some of my video'd games, many of my points come from chop/chop/chop and then a FH loop kill. Because they get too complacent with dinking the ball back, I move around and kill it. The problem for me is I don't like attacking them, either! I like to whittle them down and frustrate them into missing, yet the evidence is clear... to get past these bozo-boys and their paddy cake style vs defense, I just have to bite the bullet and blast some balls right through them! Unless you want to do more of the boring dink vs dink games.

Do you also favor forehand chopping? I've tried to train myself out of it a bit, though my instinct remains -- anytime a top spin ball comes at me, I chop it back or perhaps fish it back if not in a good position. Most people love hitting vs top spin, not me! It's my worst shot, and as you mentioned (I'm a wonderful brush looper) about loopers, my favorite ball to attack is a heavy push or anything with back spin/no spin. In fact my game is basically chop/push everything until they push one back that I can power loop against. Doesn't sound like the SP will help much there.

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 17:51 
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Interesting! P4 is great for safe and varied chopping. Did you try Feint III? I have not tried that but I imagine they are very similar but I got the feeling FIII is more easy for attacking. Can anyone verify that or am I just guessing?

About twiddeling - make up a couple of rules when to twiddle and then practice, then do it in matches at practice and then at matches that really matter. Have a look at Ruwen and Swedish defender Gustaf Ericsson (https://youtu.be/iHNeTY1-4uw).

Pushing against good players is mostly better to do with pips (sponges pips at least) because that gives a hesitation. Good players are very used to loop against a good inverted push.

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 19:42 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
:lol: :lol: I can imagine the frustration looking down at your paddle as you tear the SP off, going in search of your LP rubbers -- been there many times!

Might have to change your blog name now, too :rofl:

Now here's a question -- I had considered going the SP route for a more classical defense game. Relying on spin variations and such to win points. But it seems that with your SP you were actually becoming MORE offensive? Having to hit the balls to scare them off. And if that's the case, then the SP is garbage for me anyway since I can't attack off the backhand with top spin anymore.

Not sure you saw my recommendation to snowman of stiga horiztonal 55, if you want a very grippy LP on a hard sponge. As opposed to the pillow soft p4 variety.

I had a similar predicament as you... watching some of my video'd games, many of my points come from chop/chop/chop and then a FH loop kill. Because they get too complacent with dinking the ball back, I move around and kill it. The problem for me is I don't like attacking them, either! I like to whittle them down and frustrate them into missing, yet the evidence is clear... to get past these bozo-boys and their paddy cake style vs defense, I just have to bite the bullet and blast some balls right through them! Unless you want to do more of the boring dink vs dink games.

Do you also favor forehand chopping? I've tried to train myself out of it a bit, though my instinct remains -- anytime a top spin ball comes at me, I chop it back or perhaps fish it back if not in a good position. Most people love hitting vs top spin, not me! It's my worst shot, and as you mentioned (I'm a wonderful brush looper) about loopers, my favorite ball to attack is a heavy push or anything with back spin/no spin. In fact my game is basically chop/push everything until they push one back that I can power loop against. Doesn't sound like the SP will help much there.


When I came home from TT, I was so frustrated my skin turned green and my body broke my own clothing. I ripped the Spectol from my paddle. My tearing was so powerful I broke the bond between topsheet and sponge. After ripping of the topsheet I ate the paddle including the sponge. I calmed down and ran to the toilets... Boy, the smell!!!

Reality check: I actually destroyed my Spectol by seperating the sponge from the topsheet. It was well glued together; too well in fact!

Yes, the SP made me more offensive, because I couldn't rely on my defense against the better opponents. If I could, I'd certainly have done so. But in order to do so you need dampening and that's something 802 barely provided and Spectol to a certain degree provided.

Yes, I saw it and I already tested that version. It didn't feel right to me. I actually might try the Horizontal 20 version, though.

Yes, I do favor chopping and fishing with the FH, but I don't mind attacking with it. I just need an intermediate step to unleash it (quick BH, pivot to FH).

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 19:57 
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Def-attack wrote:
About twiddeling - make up a couple of rules when to twiddle and then practice, then do it in matches at practice and then at matches that really matter. Have a look at Ruwen and Swedish defender Gustaf Ericsson (https://youtu.be/iHNeTY1-4uw).

Pushing against good players is mostly better to do with pips (sponges pips at least) because that gives a hesitation. Good players are very used to loop against a good inverted push.


About the pushing: yeah, I noticed that. :nod: It's strange, though: theory would make you expect something different, but since the plastic ball and hyper tension rubbers nature laws don't count anymore. :lol: E.g. Hitting a ball from below net height and still landing it, hitting a heavy topspin like it's nothing... According to the ITTF, however, everything is fine in the land of TT.

About the twiddling: yeah, I might do that. However, I'm not sure to go for a BH loop and if I do, how do I teach that to myself? Because my BH is my best side I'm not doubting my capacity to learn it, but how to learn it.

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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 08:03 
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Lorre wrote:
[
About the twiddling: yeah, I might do that. However, I'm not sure to go for a BH loop and if I do, how do I teach that to myself? Because my BH is my best side I'm not doubting my capacity to learn it, but how to learn it.


Practice with inverted on BH... A lot :).
I do most drills with inverted on BH (twiddeling a lot) so I have a decent BH block and BH drive. I am gtting better and better with BH loop, but it is easier to loop BH against a slow push than against top spin, at leat for me. But start with the block. If you can learn to sometimes twiddle and block with inverted, that will give you a brand new weapon, a new dimension to your game :up:.

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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 10:51 
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Def-attack wrote:
Interesting! P4 is great for safe and varied chopping. Did you try Feint III? I have not tried that but I imagine they are very similar but I got the feeling FIII is more easy for attacking. Can anyone verify that or am I just guessing?

About twiddeling - make up a couple of rules when to twiddle and then practice, then do it in matches at practice and then at matches that really matter. Have a look at Ruwen and Swedish defender Gustaf Ericsson (https://youtu.be/iHNeTY1-4uw).

Pushing against good players is mostly better to do with pips (sponges pips at least) because that gives a hesitation. Good players are very used to loop against a good inverted push.


I think it depends on how you attack. The 2 are quite similar, but if I were to nitpick based on my experiences with them... FL3 is better at smacking straight through, and p4 is slightly better at the brushing style strokes where you want a bit of grazing/bending on top of the hit.

For my twiddling, I basically only do it on the backhand intentionally. My forehand can handle all the spins well enough, for chopping or block or pushing. I twiddle to the backhand when they use low spin, or I will chop heavy with the backhand inverted a few times, and then later on any time I twiddle they expect heavy backspin. So I'll toss in a floated inverted push on the backhand or dead chop. Or if you do medium chops, you can add the wrist in on a few and they may net it. If all you do is heavy backhand inverted pushes/chops it becomes as predictable as the low spin LP returns.

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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 19:20 
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Def-attack wrote:
Lorre wrote:
[
About the twiddling: yeah, I might do that. However, I'm not sure to go for a BH loop and if I do, how do I teach that to myself? Because my BH is my best side I'm not doubting my capacity to learn it, but how to learn it.


Practice with inverted on BH... A lot :).
I do most drills with inverted on BH (twiddeling a lot) so I have a decent BH block and BH drive. I am gtting better and better with BH loop, but it is easier to loop BH against a slow push than against top spin, at leat for me. But start with the block. If you can learn to sometimes twiddle and block with inverted, that will give you a brand new weapon, a new dimension to your game :up:.


I think I'll do just that... Thx 4 the feedback! :)

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PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 00:46 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Lorre wrote:
[
About the twiddling: yeah, I might do that. However, I'm not sure to go for a BH loop and if I do, how do I teach that to myself? Because my BH is my best side I'm not doubting my capacity to learn it, but how to learn it.


Practice with inverted on BH... A lot :).
I do most drills with inverted on BH (twiddeling a lot) so I have a decent BH block and BH drive. I am gtting better and better with BH loop, but it is easier to loop BH against a slow push than against top spin, at leat for me. But start with the block. If you can learn to sometimes twiddle and block with inverted, that will give you a brand new weapon, a new dimension to your game :up:.


I think I'll do just that... Thx 4 the feedback! :)
You may recall that I once started a blog about this subject :).

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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 19:08 
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Def-attack wrote:
You may recall that I once started a blog about this subject :).


Was that the initial cause of your blog? I remember you went different routes (MP, flanti,...). Long time you posted there! :(

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