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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 04:48 
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Yes it is rough too for me ! But think about it: if a surface is very slick then it will have a lot of contact point when the ball hits that surface. With a less slick rough surface there will be less contact point than the one who has a very slick surface. A rough surface =/ a grippy surface.

That's why slick long pimples will always have the best spin reversal. Because they don't have too much contact point.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 05:03 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Surface was smooth and slick for me. I know people in the German forum have reported these same discrepancy.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
II. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
III. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: Joola Badman Reloaded OX
V. Victas Koji Matsushita; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: TSP P-1R 1.0-1.3mm
USATT Rating: 2037


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 08:57 
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Rinforzando wrote:
Yes it is rough too for me ! But think about it: if a surface is very slick then it will have a lot of contact point when the ball hits that surface. With a less slick rough surface there will be less contact point than the one who has a very slick surface. A rough surface =/ a grippy surface.

That's why slick long pimples will always have the best spin reversal. Because they don't have too much contact point.

I do get your theory and I heard this also on the Noppentest forum though I'm not ready to buy it. The best reversal I have ever seen is with a 10 year old ABS 1.2mm I have. That surface is so slick you could ice-skate on it!
I also don't believe that frictionless long pips have better reversal, at least not with the old cell ball when you use the right anti. The problem with the anti is that it is a lot more difficult to play with.
So how is the reversal with your "rough" Vortex" then?

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 08:59 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Surface was smooth and slick for me. I know people in the German forum have reported these same discrepancy.

How is the reversal with your Vortex compared to maybe other antis you have tested? Yes I read this too in the Noppentest forum but people said that it didn't affect the reversal.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 09:40 
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Matt Pimple wrote:
So how is the reversal with your "rough" Vortex" then?


I play with the 1.2mm version with red sponge. Well compared to a Scandal 0.9mm, I'd say the spin reversal is at least the same if not better. But it has not the flutter effect of the Scandal so in a way, the Vortex isn't more dangerous than the Scandal.


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 12:12 
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Blade: DMS Revolution
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BH: Spinlab Vortex 0.5mm
The topsheet itself is one of the most spin immune I've ever seen. The roughness in my experience is a good thing. Here are two photos using a low-power microscope.

One photo is brand new frictionless anti (ABS) - very good spin reversal and you can see the surface is quite rough.
Image
https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5696/djushsrt_jpg.htm

The next photo is worn frictionless anti (ABS) - less spin reversal and you can see the surface is smooth where the pips are underneath.
Image
https://www.directupload.net/file/d/5696/qki286bx_jpg.htm

The flattened smooth spots developed after the rubber was pounded with loop after loop. The greater contact with the ball created grip. I found this to be true for a variety of DMS and Neubauer rubbers, including ABS and Transformer. Both of those had extremely good spin reversal and gradually gained grip. Once that happened I became susceptible to strong loops from my opponents.

The Vortex is very rough, and time will tell if it will retain that roughness or if it will develop the same durability issues with flattened smooth spots.

Matt, I agree the sponges that come with the rubber are just too slow. In my opinion they detract from the properties of the topsheet. So I glued the Vortex topsheet to a 0.5mm TSP Curl sponge. My DMS Revolution blade is a great rigid blade for frictionless anti. It's beyond useless for looping, but great for flat hitting. With this setup I lose the extreme shortness of blocks vs. loop drives, but I retain the extreme reversal and spin immunity. I'm going to stick with it for a while.


Last edited by hardbatpower on 15 Feb 2020, 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2020, 13:42 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Matt Pimple wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Surface was smooth and slick for me. I know people in the German forum have reported these same discrepancy.

How is the reversal with your Vortex compared to maybe other antis you have tested? Yes I read this too in the Noppentest forum but people said that it didn't affect the reversal.


I thought the reversal was great (the 2200+ looper I often practice with had to really push himself to loop repeatedly, and when he tried to push back my blocks, the pushes often shot straight down into the bottom of the net), but I don't have much experience with other frictionless antis because I found the few I've tired too difficult to control as far as blade angle. With the Vortex, my issue is that I can't seem to block effectively when the ball goes toward my forehand side, and so I'm mostly still playing with my long pips but trying out the Vortex occasionally to see if I can get the hang of it.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
II. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
III. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: Joola Badman Reloaded OX
V. Victas Koji Matsushita; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: TSP P-1R 1.0-1.3mm
USATT Rating: 2037


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2020, 04:47 
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To amplify on my comments about the spin reversal above, someone posted this video in the Noppentest forum, and it's reflective of the level of spin reversal I've been getting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBOHrlb ... e=youtu.be

Again, my issue is not spin reversal but being able to pick up loops to my forehand with my usual chicken-wing block.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
II. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
III. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: Joola Badman Reloaded OX
V. Victas Koji Matsushita; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: TSP P-1R 1.0-1.3mm
USATT Rating: 2037


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2020, 08:38 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
my issue is not spin reversal but being able to pick up loops to my forehand with my usual chicken-wing block.

I'm afraid that other antis may not help with that issue either.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 01:27 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Again, my issue is not spin reversal but being able to pick up loops to my forehand with my usual chicken-wing block.

There is one higher level (maybe USATT 2300) German anti player, Jens Gester, who might doing what you are looking for. Check out his video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUos5UQN9Vg
And maybe search for some more videos on YouTube if that's what you are looking for. He does seem to move his body over though.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 04:11 
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John Hilton, a real "anti" player. Curious enough, nobody can tell you what exactly rubber Hilton would use on his backhand. There was no Toni Hold antispin in the year 1979.

Image


Last edited by igorponger on 19 Feb 2020, 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 04:21 
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Chopoleon Bonaparte
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Matt Pimple wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Again, my issue is not spin reversal but being able to pick up loops to my forehand with my usual chicken-wing block.

There is one higher level (maybe USATT 2300) German anti player, Jens Gester, who might doing what you are looking for. Check out his video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUos5UQN9Vg
And maybe search for some more videos on YouTube if that's what you are looking for. He does seem to move his body over though.


Thanks. Yes, he does largely move his body, but I noticed a block at around the 1:18-mark in the video where he does exactly what I'm talking about (and what I regularly do successfully with long pips): he simply slides his arm over because he doesn't have time for full body movement, and the result is that the ball gets grazed a bit on contact. With pips, this grazing often produces more control and a more difficult ball trajectory, but with frictionless anti, the grazing lessens control and spin reversal (notice that the opponents blasts the resulting ball right past him). What this means to me is that with anti, you need to depend more on your forehand when the ball goes to your forehand side, and for many of us who are more backhand-dominant, that's an issue.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
II. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
III. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: Joola Badman Reloaded OX
V. Victas Koji Matsushita; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: TSP P-1R 1.0-1.3mm
USATT Rating: 2037


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 04:37 
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TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Matt Pimple wrote:
TraditionalTradesman wrote:
Again, my issue is not spin reversal but being able to pick up loops to my forehand with my usual chicken-wing block.

There is one higher level (maybe USATT 2300) German anti player, Jens Gester, who might doing what you are looking for. Check out his video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUos5UQN9Vg
And maybe search for some more videos on YouTube if that's what you are looking for. He does seem to move his body over though.


Thanks. Yes, he does largely move his body, but I noticed a block at around the 1:18-mark in the video where he does exactly what I'm talking about (and what I regularly do successfully with long pips): he simply slides his arm over because he doesn't have time for full body movement, and the result is that the ball gets grazed a bit on contact. With pips, this grazing often produces more control and a more difficult ball trajectory, but with frictionless anti, the grazing lessens control and spin reversal (notice that the opponents blasts the resulting ball right past him). What this means to me is that with anti, you need to depend more on your forehand when the ball goes to your forehand side, and for many of us who are more backhand-dominant, that's an issue.

I do see your point but please also keep in mind that Thomas Keinath is a very good player. I think in your case you have just have to practice that chicken wing shot as a player who likes to cover most of the table with bh and see how it works for you. The key for that shot may not necessarily be the reversal but more placement and if you can keep it short to prevent the attacker from relooping. I believe at some level a better forehand becomes very important though and that's what I have been focusing and working on.

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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 06:20 
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Matt Pimple wrote:
I do see your point but please also keep in mind that Thomas Keinath is a very good player. I think in your case you have just have to practice that chicken wing shot as a player who likes to cover most of the table with bh and see how it works for you. The key for that shot may not necessarily be the reversal but more placement and if you can keep it short to prevent the attacker from relooping. I believe at some level a better forehand becomes very important though and that's what I have been focusing and working on.


Completely agree with all of that. I'm just lamenting the fact that even a high-reversal (at least for me and many others), decently blade-angle-insensitive frictionless anti like the Vortex still doesn't come close to frictionless long pips in its effectiveness and versatility, but even, in my view, doesn't come close in its effectiveness and versatility to long pips with friction in the days before the unspinny, brick-like ABS ball appeared on the scene.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
II. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
III. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: Joola Badman Reloaded OX
V. Victas Koji Matsushita; FH: Yasaka Rakza 7 Soft 1.8mm; BH: TSP P-1R 1.0-1.3mm
USATT Rating: 2037


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 Post subject: Re: Spinlab Vortex
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 19:43 
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NO-NAME PRODUCTS.

It was not till the year 1993 that players were required to have a factory logo/ name on the rubbers in use. This is the reason that you never know which rubber brands Chinese used to use in the 1970-1980's
Likewise, John Hilton's was a no-name product, just a black-coloured rubber surface with no letterings to view..


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