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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 23:17 
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I'm curious to know if anyone here has any experience with TSP Super Spin Pips Chop 2 or if not, Spectol (ideally in sponge 1mm upwards up to 1.8 or so)? Specifically looking for people's impression of them while chopping in different situations (like emergency chop, against heavy loops, against more comfortable balls, etc.)
. Does it have good control and so on. I'm just going to assume both are excellent for varying the level of backspin.
Also what are they like to attack with?

Right now I'm using TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm. I find it an extremely secure rubber that I can build up enough chop to make most net the ball in 2-3 loops or 4 or so for the better ones. That all is great, but I really miss being able to decide when I want my opponent to miss, something I can do with my forehand chop with Hurricane and could do previously with short pip ox. But at the same time, I'm not sure I want to leave the security of Curl behind, or at least give too much of it up.

From whst I can tell Super Spin Pips Chop 2 and Spectol are pretty much the Curl P1r's of short pips, so I'm thinking maybe they'd be more secure than the Yasaka ox pips I was using before.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 00:53 
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Welcome aboard, snowman! :lol:

Seems a number of us on here are wanting to or tinkering over with short pips again for chopping...

Quick summary from my experiences with them - super spin 2 is basically like a weak inverted rubber. Very little forgiveness when chopping, no real pip qualities to it on most any shot. Soft sponge helps dampen hard shots. Spin still must be controlled by you.

Spectol is a bit less grippy but still hard to use. This is generally regarded as the easier one, though also creates less spin.

I can use them both against lower-tier opponents, but if you face heavy spin loopers... I think you'd really need to train with them to not only control the spin under pressure, but adjust your footwork, service receive game and that sort of thing. I'm still in the process currently of wanting to swap to them full time, yet hesitant to give up the safety of my OX LP in how lazy it allows me to be and still send back good shots :rofl:

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 02:25 
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I think we've talked before on this forum last year sometime, or earlier this year. Not sure as haven't been on in a while. Recognize the name skilless_slapper anyway.

Onto the topic on this thread. The new ball I'm sure has got a lot of long pip players, not just choppers, thinking about changing sides :).

I was a short pip player fir years, though with no sponge. Spin variation was great, and flat hits were effective. But one particular issue kept biting me in certain matchups (Samsonov like slow looper and slappers) and at the highest levels I played at, and that's forgiveness when chopping. I was rarely not competitive, but it felt like an uphill battle needlessly at times and nkt always a case of opponent being better. Enter long pips and that's turned around. I feel like I'm getting some assistance. Forgivness from Curl and options with Hurricane. Short pips ox makes you feel all alone out there, for me, if thst makes sense.

At this stage, I haven't played anybody yet thst can lift more than four chops from my Curl P1r. A lot put the ball in the net on the second or third ball. It's also great for emergency chops, so seem to have less problems with slappers now. Rallies are actually shorter fir me now than ever. Typing this I wonder what I'm complaining about lol.

I guess my concern is getting to a point oneday where I'm playing people regularly thst lift the ball rather easily and I'm forced into a 'just get thr ball back till I can hit it' scenario (I find the spin variation pointless with P1r, and pretty much heavy cut every time). I also don't like that attacking with Curl is not the best experience, though it's something ive been steadily getting better at.

I just wonder if Spectol or Super Spin Pips Chop 2 in say 1.5/1.8 would be a better balance in the long run. Spin variation but with cushioning from sponge. The forgiveness is whst it keeps coming to with long pips though isn't it, like it seems with you too from whst you've said. Long pips like turning difficulty down in a video game, but will it affect the rewards?

I also don't wabt to waste my time either as I've got a ton of rubbers now that aren't being used. Maybe I should open up a shop lol.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 02:34 
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I should note too that I used Curl P4 for a bit in 1.5mm. It's still on my backup bat. Surpsingly heavy chop with it and could throw in floats, though the floats weren't quite as dead as with short pips or inverted. Attacking was practically pointless. Like an sheet of tackniness chop where the sponge has lost its life.

Reason I decided on P1r over it was because I find P1r more secure timing wise and more effective over the course of a point. In this sense, I wonder if I'll find the same with short pips. The thing that makes me think maybe not is thst I will be able to get a greater range of spin with super spin pips chop 2 or Spectol and attacks should be more viable.

I also try to play a way more in line with Hou Yingchau and Yuto Maramatsu and less Joo Sae Hyuk, even though Joo is my favourite. By this I mean I like to attack and be aggressive.

But this is all theory. Which is why I started this thread on hopes of hearing experiences like yours eith yhr rubbers.

Question. Which do you prefer, spin pips or Spectol, considering you say you plan on switching eventually?

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 04:42 
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Blade: SOULSPIN DEFENSE
FH: Spinny stuff
BH: Spongeless reviled stuff
Yeah, I was actually reading your review of curl p1 vs p4 last night! The one from a long while back, as I was considering trying my 1.5 sponge curl p4 again. But kind of like you found, that mushy sponge is such a letdown on many shots. It's more forgiving than short pips, sure, but not really by a ton. You give up just a bit of security for much less attacking potency when hitting.

For me now, I'm either using my faster setup with d.tecs OX and looping on the forehand -- or using my slow setup, also with d.tecs OX, and twiddling when chopping. Then coming in for loops now and again against pushes.

With my game, that's probably the best bet. Since I can also play aggressively over the table with OX against backspin. Whereas you were coming from short pip so probably didn't get to use those shots much, or with thicker sponged LP either.

I personally think the security of my LP is a better trade off, and then twiddling if someone gives me no spin crap or run around and forehand loop. Meaning I can't really see myself swapping to SP or even thick sponged LP at this point. It would be nice, though also require most likely years for me to re-tune my strokes and game tactics. It takes a real commitment to learn with low margins when playing against good opponents.

But if you wanted to try it, the spectol is 'easier' to use and still creates a good bit of spin. Have you tried twiddling against the dinkier players?

There is Wang Yang who chops with what is supposed to be .6mm short pips (super spin chop 2?). I don't think the speed is what defeats most short pip choppers... it's the spins! And the extra footwork to always be in the right spot or you send the ball floating up high.

It really comes down, in my view, do you want to go for security on the backhand -- and never miss? Or do you want to play more aggressively and try to force errors through spin variations etc. even though it might cost you more points than you win...

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 07:04 
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https://www.youtube.com/user/sabolindale

some amateur short pips defense....

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 08:53 
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skilless_slapper wrote:

It really comes down, in my view, do you want to go for security on the backhand -- and never miss? Or do you want to play more aggressively and try to force errors through spin variations etc. even though it might cost you more points than you win...


This is the question, isn't it. I've been asking myself this question, and honestly I'm not sure. I've now used both long pips (with sponge) and short pips (though in ox) and played well with both.

You say you think short pip choppers lose because of spins and footwork neccessary to deal with the lack of forgiveness basically. I agree, and I can confirm that's where I failed against the best players I've come across gegerally, when I've lost. From my experience, if I'm in position and compensate for the incoming spin well, short pips are better than long pips. Also much better for attacking. But the thing is, you're not always in position as a defender and it only gets worse thr higher up you go. With long pips my defense feels really secure. Catch me in the body? No problem. Heavy spin? No problem.

Also, wity the 1.5mm sponge under my Curl P1r, players who don't use much spin doesn't seem to be much of a problem. It can generate just enough spin by itself to avoid being flat slapped off the table, though I haven't played many if this type of player since switching to long pips (notably, I hsvrbt played an anti spin or short pip attacker with it). I find a player can take a swing at the first or second chop and have some success with it, but this is where the security of long pips comes in. I get most of these shots back, and wity control. And it goes back with decent backspin, something my reaction/emergency shots with short pips didn't have.

Long pips basically feels like my backhand is a wall. I'm all safe and secure behind it, with the odd enemy getting over (hitting winners against me etc.). But I haven't experienced yet whst happens when they can get over thr wall. In that sense, I feel ill be pushed to just return the ball again and again till I get thr chance to hit. With short pips, I can change the conditions of my defense. I'm not just sitting behind a wall, if that makes sense.

If I feel I have to switch to something like SSPC2 or Spectol, I'd rather do it now than later. I find it takes time to get used to new rubbers.

For what it's worth, I brought out an old sheet of 802 in 1.5mm and put it back after a few mins. Just too unforgiving after long pips. Maybe that's my answer right there.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 19 Nov 2019, 14:07, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 09:13 
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Yep, thr sponge under p4, I'm not a fan. I liked Feint Long 3 in 1.1mm a lot but wanted more spin. So P4 in 1.5 seemed the way to go. Used it for a while and just felt frustrated with it most of the time. Attacking was totally useless eith it, chops were very heavy and could vary thr spin well fit a long pip, but the Uber soft sponge takes away all feeling for me wity emergency shots. I had to be in position like with short pips, though yes it's still more forgiving, but not as much as other long pips.

I'm aware SSPC2 and Spectol have sodt sponge too, but I figure having short pimples would help here next to the long and soft pips of p4, just making a mushy exoerience combined with soft sponge.

I've got a sheet of Dtechs OX myself. Deadly. All kinds of stuff possible with that rubber. Not for my style though, but was better when I put 1.5mm spoonge under it.

Rereading my thoughts here and it seems I've already found my rubber, which is P1r. But I'm too aware it will never give me a lot of options. I read all kinds of things about it befire trying it, like 'spinniest thing ever', but I'd just describe it as a good balance between safety and effectiveness (latter just as far as long pips go). But It feels like I'm disabling myself to enhance security at the expense of options and effectiveness.

I'll probably take your advice and try Spectol over SSPC2. If I like Spectol I guess I'd hsve to try SSPC2 though. Need to get it out of my system.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 19 Nov 2019, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 09:17 
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Attacker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/user/sabolindale

some amateur short pips defense....

Thanks for thst. Good use of Spectol there.

I'm aware chopping at all level is possible with short pips. It's more thst I need to figure out which is ultimatly better for me in the long run.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 16:34 
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Blade: SOULSPIN DEFENSE
FH: Spinny stuff
BH: Spongeless reviled stuff
Well if you thought the 802 was too difficult... spectol and ssc2 aren't going to be any better.

You might be stuck having to try a kind of medium pip like the young japanese choppers. Nittaku do knuckle, medium pipish.

Looks like you're at the crossroads many choppers wind up, and return to... you want more spin to produce variations, but want to keep the forgiveness of rubbers with less grip. Ultimately you cant really have both. Just have to decide which is more important to you and adjust to the rest.

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Bh: Not so spinny rubber...


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 17:15 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Well if you thought the 802 was too difficult... spectol and ssc2 aren't going to be any better.

You might be stuck having to try a kind of medium pip like the young japanese choppers. Nittaku do knuckle, medium pipish.

Looks like you're at the crossroads many choppers wind up, and return to... you want more spin to produce variations, but want to keep the forgiveness of rubbers with less grip. Ultimately you cant really have both. Just have to decide which is more important to you and adjust to the rest.
Well, Spectol is in my opinion a lot more easy to chop with than 802. But you need the right blade for it. For me, Joo Se Hyuk was a lot better than Victas Koji Matsushita.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 20:29 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Well if you thought the 802 was too difficult... spectol and ssc2 aren't going to be any better.

You might be stuck having to try a kind of medium pip like the young japanese choppers. Nittaku do knuckle, medium pipish.

Looks like you're at the crossroads many choppers wind up, and return to... you want more spin to produce variations, but want to keep the forgiveness of rubbers with less grip. Ultimately you cant really have both. Just have to decide which is more important to you and adjust to the rest.


I know I can use 802, at least I know I can on my forehand (which should mean I can use it on my backhand). Used it on forehand in 1.5mm as kind of transition from short pip ox to smooth rubber. Could do everything with it, and liked it a lot at thr time.

In honesty though, I find Hurricane does everything, other than flat hit, better than 802. More chop, same consistency, more attacking options. Which is partly why it hasn't really been at the top of my list to try on my backhand.

If you say it won't be any it much better with SSPC2 or Spectol, then that's basically saying my options are stay with P1r, try medium pips, or go double inverted.

The reason I put 802 down so quickly after trying it again was that I found it overly stiff (the sponge is quite hard, as are the pips). Immediately, hits were quick, but get the feeling straight away that I won't trust it too much chopping under pressure (although was able to do it on forehand). I guess I'd get used to it if I really want to, but I don't think I wabt to. Maybe I should give it a full session sometime before buying Spectol.

I haven't really been interested in mid pips. Maybe it's just ignorence on my part though, as don't really know a lot about them. In my head, they are in no mans land.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 19 Nov 2019, 20:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 20:34 
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.[/quote]Well, Spectol is in my opinion a lot more easy to chop with than 802. But you need the right blade for it. For me, Joo Se Hyuk was a lot better than Victas Koji Matsushita.[/quote]

Spectol sponge and pips meant to be fairly soft, from whst I've read. This is why I thought it might be better for chopping than 802. My 802 has stiff sponge and pips. Feels very solid with zero dwell time.

I use the Joo Sae Hyuk blade. On one hand I feel Spectol is worth trying then, but on the other it will be closer to 802 than P1r. Ideally maybe I'm looking for something bang in the middle maybe, but can't be certain of that.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 20:44 
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I can do quite a bit variation with p1r 1.5.
From heavy under to weak under. Maybe your motion on full chop isn't fast enough so your variation is too small?
What do you think?


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 21:02 
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Pure Luck wrote:
I can do quite a bit variation with p1r 1.5.
From heavy under to weak under. Maybe your motion on full chop isn't fast enough so your variation is too small?
What do you think?


Regarding my chop motion, I'm probably not the one to judge that. I'm happy enough with it but am always trying to better it. I think a few years back it wasn't the strongest but disguised how much chop I put on the ball well (short pips ox at thst time). It's gotten stronger in recent times though to the point where hardly anbody I've played can lift my chop. Most net the ball on the first or second chop with my inverted side and 2-3 with the pips. I have practiced with a couple who can lift more, but the rallies are still rather short.

I can vary the spin in a fairly effective way with P1r if there's not a lot of incoming spin. But in honesty though I've found it more effective to heavy cut each time. But perhaps that's only because nobody yet has been able to continue to loop against it with control. And that's the level of player I'm thinking about with this topic, about possibly switching back to short pips. If I play someone like thst, playing how I do now, I'll just br returning thr ball and waiting to hit. With short pips it would be different, but it comes with its own disadvantages.

I've found spin variation to be rather ineffective once the opponent is capable of generating a lot of spin. And this is when the variation would be most useful, as generally the better the player the more spin they play with. Even Joo himself in an interview on here says he doesn't vary his chops really with his Curl.

For me, variation is only a viable option if the spin difference between float and heavy cut is dramatic. I can catch lesser players out who don't have great form but better players will adjust easily to a smaller range of spin. Which is why short pips is much better for winning points with variation for me, but it's possible it balances out the same or better with the security and spin build up of long pips. When I used short pips ox I mostly did a medium chop and frequently mixed in floats and heavy cuts. It confuses opponents a lot, and I kind of miss it

I have read on here, a Canadian guy who played for the national team decades ago, talking about using P1r in 1.5mm in a differebt way. He does a medium chop most of the time, but throws in a heavy cut every now abd then which more often than not ends with them dumping it in the net. Maybe this is what Ma Te does (though I know he doesn't use P1r), as he seems to force more errors from opponents than other long pip choppers. So it's not really that much variation, just a decent chop to heavy chop. But maybe it works once somebody can handle multiple chops with long pips.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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