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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 21:49 
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Snowman89 wrote:
Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.


I can twiddle when I want in a rally, but only when the pace gets slower or is slow (e.g. loop, chop, push, push with inverted or push, push, push, push with inverted). I learned it by first being able to twiddle during service. After that it becomes a breeze to learn it IMO.

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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 00:17 
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I do believe, as I was saying eity the tennis anology, that relative to your individual level, when you play well, you're going to play better with short pips. When you play bad, you're going to play better with long pips. Probably balances out in between when in normal form. Don't know if I've said that already.

When I used short pips ox, when I was really feeling it, I was able to play with opponents around my level like a mouse on a string. Varying spin, mixing up attacks with defense on both sides. Can really mess wity an opponent. At the pro level, think we saw thst with Hou Jingchou at thr Chinese National Championships this year. He was on fire.

And at the top top level, I think if a chopper ever wins the world championships again (last time was Richard Bergmann sometime in the first half of the 50s, just before the sponge era began), it's more likeky to be with short pips or some revolution in equipment for defenders. That's my opinion.

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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 00:20 
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This post is an error. Sorry. Don't know how to delete it.

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Standard Setup 1
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Last edited by Snowman89 on 27 Nov 2019, 00:25, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 00:23 
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Lorre wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.




At the moment, I nearly always serve eith smooth rubber, no matter the serve. Just throw odd pip serve in. But really struggle to twiddle in rallies. I'm hilariously bat at it. Sometimes getting caught with handle in my fingers lol. Once or twice confusing myself and doing a forehand attack with pips...

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Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 00:29 
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Lorre wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.


I can twiddle when I want in a rally, but only when the pace gets slower or is slow (e.g. loop, chop, push, push with inverted or push, push, push, push with inverted). I learned it by first being able to twiddle during service. After that it becomes a breeze to learn it IMO.


Seen Ma Te do it effectively, but not going overboard with it. Like twiddling to chop with pips on forehand, pushing with smooth on backhand, hitting with smooth on backhand. It's effective when he does it. Even caught Ma Long out with the forehand pips chop in the 2017 Chinese National Championships.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 01:34 
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When I first started, the club 'champion' there was a bandana wearing guy around 60 who was rather short and scrawny in stature. He played with a big custom oversized blade and OX long pips, as a classical chopper. Still to this day, never saw anyone get more excited watching an opponent miss one of his chop returns :lol: but anyway, he taught me about twiddling, and his advice was to just walk around whenever you can carrying your paddle. Twiddle while watching tv, at the doctor's office, waiting for your food at a restaurant and everywhere else.

Now, my wife asked me a number of times since then "Why are you bringing that paddle?" and I just give her a James Bond raised eyebrow, before letting loose a few dramatic twiddles. She just sighed and shook her head...

However, now I can twiddle super fast. In fact, the twiddle is probably the best part of my game -- it all goes downhill once I flip the bat, but I can do it quickly at least :D Some times I twiddle 5 or 6 times before receiving serve just to throw off my opponent. They think I know what I'm doing!

In my view, long pips would still be required to stop the loopers at a world class level. But the player would need to be a lighting fast twiddler, basically. One who could attack with inverted on backhand as well as any offensive player (like joo with his forehand vs forehand). Then they basically become an attacker who only chops for variations it seems... though imagine a long pip chopper who could twiddle and unleash a Kreanga backhand from any distance. I just think it takes too much skill and time to learn, having to be world class attacker from both wings and world class defender from both sides. Female choppers still win titles, so it's not entirely dead.

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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 02:08 
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Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
On top of all that, there is a distinct lack of short pip defenders on the amateur side of things. Talking decent amateurs. I literally can't even name one. Maybe Rachel Yang from USA, but she is still very high level all things considered.

However, you can point to dozens of LP defenders - both at the world top 100s and far down the amateur ranks. And pro play is quite a bit different from amateurs... so tough to find a role model using SP.

Are you just deadset against not twiddling? I'm finding it hard to give up the leniency of long pips, especially the OX for me. For a bumbling oaf like myself, the way and amount you can get away with using LP and still produce a decent shot is comical to me at times. And it's highlighted tenfold when I chop with short pips :lol:

Mental problem there is I don't feel like a chopper... just a dinker. But when twiddling I feel like a titan-chopper! Then it's strategic to use the pips when necessary (not a cop out) and swapping to the inverted is a tactic. Doing that makes the game much more chess-like for me. Because every shot then becomes a challenge for them, and myself. I make a ton more mistakes, since I'm not too good at it currently... but I can feel that the opponent's are under much more pressure, since they have to focus on what I'm doing and can no longer relax by expecting to receive the same ball twice. Downside is, I have to train two rubbers per side and know when to twiddle - which means added anticipation skills.

Having said all that crap, since learning to play OX LP at the table and forehand attack with power... that style seems to be much more lethal for me, and requires far less movement/effort chasing down balls. I just stand there dinking the ball back until hitting a forehand kill. It's just not as fun for me...


Yep, there will be few short pip defenders for all the reasons we've covered. If we go that route, I think we just need to take influence from those on the world stage. It takes more skill as a general rule to get the same result (much like the one hander vs double hander tennis analogy). Then once you reach a certain level as we've maybe seen with Lorre, you end up just trading who you find easier and who you find harder. As in some styles easier to play when you have short, others with long. The biggest one I can think of is a heavy, slow, strong Samsonov style looper. Much easier to play with long pips. Someone more passive is easier to play eity short pips.

There's an interview with Ding Song on the ittf YouTube channel that's worth a watch it you haven't seen it. Can find it agsin if you can't find it. Basically says the long pips are more of a weakness at elite level and after Joo reached the final of the 2003 world championships, he knew he'd just be playing to make a living after thst. That would be his highest achievement. Long pips being the problem because too predictable. Not only in spins but in terms of shot selection and patterns too. Like you'll always receive with a push etc. He basically doesn't see long pips as being the answer every defender is looking for, a world champion. I'm adding my owh wording but that's basically the jist of it.

Really hit the nail on the head for me, but I think I need to remember thst long pips are not only steady, but effective against most not training at international level. I've already tested p1r against a national level player and while they could handle the pips better, abd keep it in play longer, it was still overall effective I'd say..
.
But I worry that I'm wrong with that statement. I think of myself as an attacker who defends. As in, I wabt to go in for the kill, but I need to create time on the ball to do it. Same in tennis, but how I go about it is different. I create time on the ball ironically by taking it early, putting my opponent on the defense, so I can setup the kill so to speak. Basically, in tabke tennis, I don't want to just endlessly be retrieving.

Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.

Regarding you having more success blocking with pips at the table. I tho k these things are nkt linear. As in, differebt approaches don't improve at the same rate. I think till have a higher ceiling with the twiddling chopper attacker style, but will take longer and more time/practice. You'll have a lower ceiling with staying close to the table, but maybe more immediate success depending on the level of the opposition.





Oh and actually I forgot... there is a korean lady I've seen, probably about 40, who is a short pip chopper currently at around a 2200+ usatt level. In her prime I imagine she was closer to 2500 or perhaps even higher (ex-pro I believe). She uses a joo se hyuk with spectol. She doesn't forehand loop at all, only smashes and drives. Some times she hits winners on the backhand. I can dig up some footage of her from one of those tournament live stream 5 hour long video things if anyone is interested. But again, she was a really good player who's level has fallen from not playing much in recent times. It's not like she was an amateur who worked up to 2300 as an SP chopper.

Yeah that's the thing... you could spend all that time learning SP chopping, get to the same level and then just lose to a different batch of opponents! Then we'd see a new post on here "What's the best long pip for chopping?" :lol: :lol:

I think for me especially, after all this chatting, I'm sticking with the LP for all the reasons we've talked about. Is that the way you're heading, or still itching to go the SP? Are you looping on the forehand now? Or trying to win more through defense? It sounded like you were trying to setup attacks, which LP seems to have the consensus for. Be steady until they mess up and WAMMO finish 'em with a forehand joo style.

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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 03:14 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
On top of all that, there is a distinct lack of short pip defenders on the amateur side of things. Talking decent amateurs. I literally can't even name one. Maybe Rachel Yang from USA, but she is still very high level all things considered.

However, you can point to dozens of LP defenders - both at the world top 100s and far down the amateur ranks. And pro play is quite a bit different from amateurs... so tough to find a role model using SP.

Are you just deadset against not twiddling? I'm finding it hard to give up the leniency of long pips, especially the OX for me. For a bumbling oaf like myself, the way and amount you can get away with using LP and still produce a decent shot is comical to me at times. And it's highlighted tenfold when I chop with short pips :lol:

Mental problem there is I don't feel like a chopper... just a dinker. But when twiddling I feel like a titan-chopper! Then it's strategic to use the pips when necessary (not a cop out) and swapping to the inverted is a tactic. Doing that makes the game much more chess-like for me. Because every shot then becomes a challenge for them, and myself. I make a ton more mistakes, since I'm not too good at it currently... but I can feel that the opponent's are under much more pressure, since they have to focus on what I'm doing and can no longer relax by expecting to receive the same ball twice. Downside is, I have to train two rubbers per side and know when to twiddle - which means added anticipation skills.

Having said all that crap, since learning to play OX LP at the table and forehand attack with power... that style seems to be much more lethal for me, and requires far less movement/effort chasing down balls. I just stand there dinking the ball back until hitting a forehand kill. It's just not as fun for me...


Yep, there will be few short pip defenders for all the reasons we've covered. If we go that route, I think we just need to take influence from those on the world stage. It takes more skill as a general rule to get the same result (much like the one hander vs double hander tennis analogy). Then once you reach a certain level as we've maybe seen with Lorre, you end up just trading who you find easier and who you find harder. As in some styles easier to play when you have short, others with long. The biggest one I can think of is a heavy, slow, strong Samsonov style looper. Much easier to play with long pips. Someone more passive is easier to play eity short pips.

There's an interview with Ding Song on the ittf YouTube channel that's worth a watch it you haven't seen it. Can find it agsin if you can't find it. Basically says the long pips are more of a weakness at elite level and after Joo reached the final of the 2003 world championships, he knew he'd just be playing to make a living after thst. That would be his highest achievement. Long pips being the problem because too predictable. Not only in spins but in terms of shot selection and patterns too. Like you'll always receive with a push etc. He basically doesn't see long pips as being the answer every defender is looking for, a world champion. I'm adding my owh wording but that's basically the jist of it.

Really hit the nail on the head for me, but I think I need to remember thst long pips are not only steady, but effective against most not training at international level. I've already tested p1r against a national level player and while they could handle the pips better, abd keep it in play longer, it was still overall effective I'd say..
.
But I worry that I'm wrong with that statement. I think of myself as an attacker who defends. As in, I wabt to go in for the kill, but I need to create time on the ball to do it. Same in tennis, but how I go about it is different. I create time on the ball ironically by taking it early, putting my opponent on the defense, so I can setup the kill so to speak. Basically, in tabke tennis, I don't want to just endlessly be retrieving.

Not against twiddling, no. Can see myself doing the kind of thing yiure doing as I get better at it. Right now, I'm trying it a bit but I'm way too slow doing it. Comically so. It's something I'm working on. And will probably continue to do so unless I go double inverted.

Regarding you having more success blocking with pips at the table. I tho k these things are nkt linear. As in, differebt approaches don't improve at the same rate. I think till have a higher ceiling with the twiddling chopper attacker style, but will take longer and more time/practice. You'll have a lower ceiling with staying close to the table, but maybe more immediate success depending on the level of the opposition.





Oh and actually I forgot... there is a korean lady I've seen, probably about 40, who is a short pip chopper currently at around a 2200+ usatt level. In her prime I imagine she was closer to 2500 or perhaps even higher (ex-pro I believe). She uses a joo se hyuk with spectol. She doesn't forehand loop at all, only smashes and drives. Some times she hits winners on the backhand. I can dig up some footage of her from one of those tournament live stream 5 hour long video things if anyone is interested. But again, she was a really good player who's level has fallen from not playing much in recent times. It's not like she was an amateur who worked up to 2300 as an SP chopper.

Yeah that's the thing... you could spend all that time learning SP chopping, get to the same level and then just lose to a different batch of opponents! Then we'd see a new post on here "What's the best long pip for chopping?" :lol: :lol:

I think for me especially, after all this chatting, I'm sticking with the LP for all the reasons we've talked about. Is that the way you're heading, or still itching to go the SP? Are you looping on the forehand now? Or trying to win more through defense? It sounded like you were trying to setup attacks, which LP seems to have the consensus for. Be steady until they mess up and WAMMO finish 'em with a forehand joo style.


These quotes are getting rather big haha.

LOL @ the bit where a player trains with sp, getting all the skills, to only end up switching to long pips. In a way, that's my story :). As I've said, I made the change with beating the higher end of opposition I've faced in mind. It remains to be seen if I can do that, as haven't played that level in a long time. But can't complain with how I'm handling those I have played. The word I'd use is secure, because of the long pips.

So, all this talking has convinced you to stick with long pips. It probably has convinced me too on honesty.

Re the bit about long vs short in debate over possible future defender workd champoion again. Joo had the chance to do it in 2003. I agree eith Ding Song there. Thst was his shot. The chances of lightning striking twice was always going to be slim. And even more so eity the new ball now. If a defender could attack with smooth off both wings at elite level, so Joo forehand and a backhand equal to thst, yea, long pips would still be viable in winning the biggest titles I think. Through twiddling. The problem is as Ding Song highlights, that requires double the efforts of an attacker. We're basically saying a defender needs to attack off both wings as good as any top attacker and defend as well as Joo Sae Hyuk or Ma Te. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but they'll be working overtime each day in training that's for sure. Only so much time in day to split between training defense and offense. Whereas the MA Long's of this world can train attacking all day. It will require some sporting genius to pull it off.

Before, with short pip ox, my strengths were how I analyzed opponents after playing them, getting the better of anyone I struggle with over many meetings, and varying the spin of my chops and disguising it to look the same. I never failed to fool someone with thr amount of backspin I put on the ball, even right up to playing some pros. The problem was I was super consistent against weaker players, and not great at chopping effectively against the better players, mostly because of angles and spin pushing me into retrieve mode.

Now, with long pips and smooth rubber, I feel my strengths are my backhand chop and my forehand attack. With short pips, I had to attack at thr top of the bounce off both wings. Hard work when yiure way back chopping. Now, I can be chopping and suddenly decide to either move around my backhand and attack or attack from forehand side, no matter yhr distance from the table. It's proven very effective so far. Hardly any balls come back when I attack with forehand, abd my backhand chop builds up spin nicely, forcing a push for me to hit or an error from their side. I'm actually finding almost everyone purely attacks my pips and only goes to my forehand for variation. It used to be more varied, their placement, when I had short pip ox. So more predictable for me and also feels comfortable. I feel I can hold out longer than they can, as in they're more likeky to net the ball or push before I make a mistake. That's from the people I've played abd practiced with since changing.

You're right, I'm using the long pips to setup attacks in rallies. I also start off a fair few points with an attack too, meaning I don't end up chopping at all. But once the rally begins, if I haven't opened up, I'm chopping in wait for the opportunity to hit. I like playing this style, it's fun.

I like watching Ma Te's chopping the most in terms of 'watching to get better' and how Joo/Wexing (might have spelled name wrong) use their forehands. That's basically what I'm going for approach wise, obviously not level wise...

[email protected] at the bat twiddling everywhere. Especially your wife sighing lol. It's a guy thing, I think. See it in Peppa Pig when watch it with my daughter too, constantly making jokes about similar stuff. Would certainly work though, taking your bat places and twiddling. I might try it, but I'll get the eye from my wife for sure haha.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 01:44 
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This is going to sound hard to believe - but I get unbelievable backspin on my backhand chops with Super Spinpips OX. I took the sponge off myself. I'm at the NA Teams tournament and when I successfully return a serve with a chop my opponents struggle.

I just found this out but I'm using this as one of my main weapons now.


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