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PostPosted: 01 Jan 2022, 23:30 
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I was about to say.. the Sardius was the blade we used to make jokes about back in the late 1990s. It was the absolute fastest blade Butterfly made back then.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2022, 05:46 
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Blade: Sardius
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iskandar taib wrote:
I was about to say.. the Sardius was the blade we used to make jokes about back in the late 1990s. It was the absolute fastest blade Butterfly made back then.

Iskandar


Hi Iskandar. Haha, yes, it is extremely fast and stiff. I used to play offense almost all the time, and the Sardius is a stiff, fast and hard blade without almost no dwell time. It even makes anti seem kind of speedy, which is a little crazy.

Do you have any advice on what I should do? I’m considering a cheap J-pen. Or maybe a slower setup etc to start the year off right. I do wonder possibly if I should keep my old grip and try to improve with a better setup.

Thanks


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2022, 10:04 
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Can one play J-Pen close to the table? I’ve seen videos where some pros have (of course) amazing footwork, and they really have to move all over the place to get that powerful forehand shot. I don’t have any desire, and maybe even physically I can’t, to do all that kind of moving. If I can’t play J-Pen close to the table, then my question is answered. And if I canola it close to the table, can I stillland some powerful forehand smashes or kill shots? Thanks


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2022, 19:34 
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https://www.affordablett.com.au/shop/an ... -3437.html

If you want to try jpen, that is a 2-sided all-round blade. It is cheap too. You can put some cheap rubber on both sides. There is a CPEN version on the same site as well.

Currently your blade is so fast, it is providing the power, but taking away consistency. Your technique doesn't provide the power, the bat does. If you go to an all-round blade, it will allow consistency but feel very slow until you learn how to produce power with your body and fingers (with an efficient kinetic chain, not brute force).

But this is what you want, right? To get better? In order to get better you must first get worse by re-training your foundational skills. You will lose a lot, play at a lower level, and feel bad about it, but that's what it takes for someone in your position to set things right and open up your potential. You will need to do a lot of boring drills and you will need to do it consistently every day.


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2022, 07:18 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
https://www.affordablett.com.au/shop/andro-ka5-plus-japanese-penholder-twiddling-p-3437.html

If you want to try jpen, that is a 2-sided all-round blade. It is cheap too. You can put some cheap rubber on both sides. There is a CPEN version on the same site as well.

Currently your blade is so fast, it is providing the power, but taking away consistency. Your technique doesn't provide the power, the bat does. If you go to an all-round blade, it will allow consistency but feel very slow until you learn how to produce power with your body and fingers (with an efficient kinetic chain, not brute force).

But this is what you want, right? To get better? In order to get better you must first get worse by re-training your foundational skills. You will lose a lot, play at a lower level, and feel bad about it, but that's what it takes for someone in your position to set things right and open up your potential. You will need to do a lot of boring drills and you will need to do it consistently every day.


Yes it is, and thanks for the link and advice. I have experimented some before, with a slower bat, and you’re 100% correct. The power is in the setup. And as you said, my game is going to get worse before it gets better. You also made a good point about setting things right. My mechanics, grip etc are all quite bad. When I try to smash with grip (and open the blade) I often hit the ball into the net. The only thing I worry about is learning the JPen style on my own. I won’t have any coaching, or know if I’m doing the shots correctly. I can research and study, maybe that’s the best bet. In our area, maybe state, there are no Jpen players. There’s an old saying, “the power is in the repetition, every day is progress.”


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 10:25 
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You don't need a JPEN coach if you aren't doing traditional JPEN. Especially since you aren't going to become an international level player. A shakehand coach should be fine. You will be playing like a shakehander just with a different grip. Make sure that you sand the blade where the index finger wraps around the handle, so you can make the blade face parallel with your elbow movement (so it's more like shakehand). You could always go CPEN if you are worried about it, I assume there are a few CPEN coaches available in your area. The other option is to get an allround shakehand blade and stick with shakehand.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 15:59 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
You don't need a JPEN coach if you aren't doing traditional JPEN. Especially since you aren't going to become an international level player. A shakehand coach should be fine. You will be playing like a shakehander just with a different grip. Make sure that you sand the blade where the index finger wraps around the handle, so you can make the blade face parallel with your elbow movement (so it's more like shakehand). You could always go CPEN if you are worried about it, I assume there are a few CPEN coaches available in your area. The other option is to get an allround shakehand blade and stick with shakehand.


Thanks for the info. That helps a lot! I do that the Jpen will suit me better. A backhand with shake grip feels super uncomfortable for me. Of course, I’ve never made myself play through it. There are only 2 Cpen coaches and they are about 3 hours away, which is pretty difficult. I have thought about trying to train with Dan Seemiller, but South Bend is almost a 7 hour drive. There is a shake hands coach about 1 hour and a half away, but I just don’t know if I can adapt to the grip. Thanks again. I may have to just accept that I’m at the level I am. Even though I don’t want to. Most players in my area are around 1100 tops (about my level-the best ones). I should say most are 600-800 ish. There’s about 20 or so of us.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2022, 03:28 
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Sardius wrote:
Can one play J-Pen close to the table? I’ve seen videos where some pros have (of course) amazing footwork, and they really have to move all over the place to get that powerful forehand shot. I don’t have any desire, and maybe even physically I can’t, to do all that kind of moving. If I can’t play J-Pen close to the table, then my question is answered. And if I canola it close to the table, can I stillland some powerful forehand smashes or kill shots? Thanks


Sure you can. If you look through, for instance, Armstrong's catalog, you'll see some Japanese penhold blades that are long and rectangular and some that are round. The round ones are meant for over-the-table play. You might not believe it but in the 1960s and 70s Japanese Penhold was the default type of blade used in most East Asian and South East Asian countries. Kids started playing with cheap Butterfly Biriba bats. So you had all sorts of styles using this sort of bat. There were some Chinese penhold bats around but comparatively few. And few shakehands players too.

But rather than this - just get a Sanwei M8 blade and a couple of Chinese rubbers, and try that out first. See if it doesn't immediately give you more control. And don't discount the Seemiller grip - I watched Danny play in his prime - he and Eric Boggan were the two top players for many years, until the likes of Cheng moved to the US, so it's definitely a viable style. Though probably not optimum, as Danny himself has admitted at least once (he said he learned to play in a basement setting). Lose the thumb on the back of the blade, though - one of the things you must be able to do is vary the angle of the bat on the backhand side all the way from open to closed. I watched Danny play chop defense against Ricky using that backhand one evening, yes, it can be done. I think it'd be hard to do with the thumb on the back - Danny held the thumb on one edge of the blade, the index finger on the other. If you're 7 hours from South Bend I'd suggest making the trip there at least once.. it's worth it. We paid for him and Ricky to come down to our club one evening for coaching, and I sure learned a lot.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2022, 12:52 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Sardius wrote:
Can one play J-Pen close to the table? I’ve seen videos where some pros have (of course) amazing footwork, and they really have to move all over the place to get that powerful forehand shot. I don’t have any desire, and maybe even physically I can’t, to do all that kind of moving. If I can’t play J-Pen close to the table, then my question is answered. And if I canola it close to the table, can I stillland some powerful forehand smashes or kill shots? Thanks


Sure you can. If you look through, for instance, Armstrong's catalog, you'll see some Japanese penhold blades that are long and rectangular and some that are round. The round ones are meant for over-the-table play. You might not believe it but in the 1960s and 70s Japanese Penhold was the default type of blade used in most East Asian and South East Asian countries. Kids started playing with cheap Butterfly Biriba bats. So you had all sorts of styles using this sort of bat. There were some Chinese penhold bats around but comparatively few. And few shakehands players too.

But rather than this - just get a Sanwei M8 blade and a couple of Chinese rubbers, and try that out first. See if it doesn't immediately give you more control. And don't discount the Seemiller grip - I watched Danny play in his prime - he and Eric Boggan were the two top players for many years, until the likes of Cheng moved to the US, so it's definitely a viable style. Though probably not optimum, as Danny himself has admitted at least once (he said he learned to play in a basement setting). Lose the thumb on the back of the blade, though - one of the things you must be able to do is vary the angle of the bat on the backhand side all the way from open to closed. I watched Danny play chop defense against Ricky using that backhand one evening, yes, it can be done. I think it'd be hard to do with the thumb on the back - Danny held the thumb on one edge of the blade, the index finger on the other. If you're 7 hours from South Bend I'd suggest making the trip there at least once.. it's worth it. We paid for him and Ricky to come down to our club one evening for coaching, and I sure learned a lot.

Iskandar


That’s really interesting about the JPen Iskandar. You definitely know your table tennis history! I have Danny Seemiller’s coaching dvd set. Maybe I should head up to South Bend. I had trouble finding the Sanwei M8. Does Gambler (formally Zeropong) have anything comparable to this blade? Also, and I’m spitballing, what about a pistol grip? If I need to play shakehands, maybe this could work for me? I know one player that uses this technique and he is short pips hitter-about 1700. But he’s very effective with the style. Does Dan loop a lot? It seems like he only plays with one side of the bat most of the time. I’ve tried copying his main serve, but I can’t get spin on it, frustrating. Thank you for the advice!


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 01:07 
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It’s probably something that need not be said, but if you do decide to make the trek this way make sure to call ahead! Coach isn’t in every day I would hate for you to waste the trip!


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 06:33 
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Reniculous wrote:
It’s probably something that need not be said, but if you do decide to make the trek this way make sure to call ahead! Coach isn’t in every day I would hate for you to waste the trip!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the advice about checking in before traveling! I’ve always wanted to go up to South Bend to play, and just to meet Dan Seemiller (my favorite player). What do you think he would tell me to do about my current situation? Also, do you know if he offers private lessons? Thanks


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 13:57 
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Well, I have narrowed it down to:
1. Keeping my old grip(working on footwork, technique, and a new setup).
2. Seemiller Grip
3. Shakehands


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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2022, 08:24 
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Analysis paralysis. I'll try to make it easy.

Go for shakehand, there will be coaching available. Plenty of cheap equipment available.

Get an Avalox P700 (or any ~7mm 7-ply all-wood blade). Make sure the blade is sealed by the shop (or yourself) so the wood isn't damaged when you replace the rubbers. Combine with classic 729 CROSS rubber. After you have developed your techniques, you can upgrade the rubber to classic 729 with original sponge for more power / sponge hardness. Then after that you can upgrade to classic 729 with transcend sponge which is a bit springier still.

I went with the faster 7-ply so 1) it won't ever need to be replaced and require re-working of technique (which can be significant when going from a flexible 5-ply to a stiff 7-ply) and 2) so it doesn't feel too super slow compared to the fast carbon blade + tenergy already in use.

I went with classic 729 topsheet because there are 3 sponge options, plus it has a good combination of control, spin and power. But really most tacky rubbers will be fine.

It will still feel slow though, which is good because you'll be learning to properly swing to generate your power and you need the forgiveness for a while until your timing becomes better.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2022, 05:30 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
Analysis paralysis. I'll try to make it easy.

Go for shakehand, there will be coaching available. Plenty of cheap equipment available.

Get an Avalox P700 (or any ~7mm 7-ply all-wood blade). Make sure the blade is sealed by the shop (or yourself) so the wood isn't damaged when you replace the rubbers. Combine with classic 729 CROSS rubber. After you have developed your techniques, you can upgrade the rubber to classic 729 with original sponge for more power / sponge hardness. Then after that you can upgrade to classic 729 with transcend sponge which is a bit springier still.

I went with the faster 7-ply so 1) it won't ever need to be replaced and require re-working of technique (which can be significant when going from a flexible 5-ply to a stiff 7-ply) and 2) so it doesn't feel too super slow compared to the fast carbon blade + tenergy already in use.

I went with classic 729 topsheet because there are 3 sponge options, plus it has a good combination of control, spin and power. But really most tacky rubbers will be fine.

It will still feel slow though, which is good because you'll be learning to properly swing to generate your power and you need the forgiveness for a while until your timing becomes better.



Thank you for the feedback and input. It is probably the smartest road to take, what you explained. I feel like the Seemiller and Jpen styles will require coaching, and I don’t have access to that. There are plenty of people that can give me some pointers on shakehands. I think I’ve always avoided it because it feels uncomfortable. I guess I need to just focus on getting used to it and the basic strokes. Thanks again.


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PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 04:16 
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The Sanwei M8 is best ordered from China. For instance:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001186948615.html

That's USD20 more or less, including shipping. Problem is AliExpress can be slow - probably 2-3 weeks before it arrives. Do a search on AliExpress, you'll find the bare blade as well as various combos with different rubbers. What I tell people is, get one even if you decide to get an expensive bat - if nothing else you can use it as a loaner or pass it along to someone else if you don't like it, and you aren't out much money. I play with it myself. It's slow enough that you have great control over the table, or when blocking, but fast enough that you can hit the ball pretty fast if you really swing hard.

Iskandar


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