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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2022, 15:42 
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Have a question. A player told me (very honest person), that he got his 1900 plus rating by listening to tips and consistently playing better players for years. No coaching.

I played a bunch of much higher players today and they pummeled me. Badly. Played 4 matches, I was 0-4 and 1-12 in games.

I’ve only been actively playing again since May.

Player ratings were:
2050
1930
1520
1600

My rating: 1150
Felt like a waste of time.


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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2022, 17:53 
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There is around a 4-5 level difference between you and the 1600 player, so of course you would expect not to do very well vs that player... vs 2000 player, you are around 10 levels away, so you would expect even more punta.

If you hang around that crowd a lot and keep at, listen up, try to improve basics, your level will improve, it just won't get to that 2000 level in a hurry.

There was a guy im Korea, a foreigner, Greg Bartz, who started TT as a rec player, maybe 1400 level in Busan way down south... I don't think he ever took formal lessons with a coach, but just played and played and played... but he paid attention... after 7 years, he was approaching 2000 level, and after 10 years, cracked WAY through that to become the most legendary foreign player there.

He is now around 2400 USATT and #10 seniors ranked.

It can be done with paying attention, some efficiency, and a lot of reps/failures.

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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2022, 18:03 
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About the feel like a waste of time... you at your level would destroy the average basement player so bad, they would never again dare to enter a Table Tennis club.

Unfortunately, there are HUGE disparities in levels, we could say at least 30 levels depending on how you measure it where/when.

It is even more unfortunate that when a rec player visits a real club, that player often fails vs the worst player in the club so one sided decisively that it is a HUGE wake-up in the difference in levels... and a huge discouragement, because they KNOW it would take a LOT of work just to get to the lowest rank in a club... so often we see this and never see the players again.

Just understand the score and know what is possible. Your friend told a true tale, it can be done if you are able to hit often with 1600/18002000 level players at will and listen up, work hard, fail, improve and get there.

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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2022, 22:41 
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Sardius wrote:
Have a question. A player told me (very honest person), that he got his 1900 plus rating by listening to tips and consistently playing better players for years. No coaching.

I played a bunch of much higher players today and they pummeled me. Badly. Played 4 matches, I was 0-4 and 1-12 in games.

I’ve only been actively playing again since May.

Player ratings were:
2050
1930
1520
1600

My rating: 1150
Felt like a waste of time.
I don’t think there is much to learn playing an opponent with over 300 points difference . You are still learning basics and a 2050 player is a very well sorted both in practice as well as in tournaments. If I were you I would target 1400 players to play and learn where you are lacking and work on it on a robot or practice. Like your friend I did not get coaching and I am around 2000 . It took me about 2 years getting there but I played some tt in high school about 20 years ago. It s certainly possible and it s not a direct relationship like the more coaching you get the more you add to your points. There are people who take weekly classes in my club and stay at the same level. The quality of coaching is also matters . If the coach is doing the same drills and not showing and correcting your technique it s a waste of time


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PostPosted: 13 Jun 2022, 22:43 
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Der_Echte wrote:
There is around a 4-5 level difference between you and the 1600 player, so of course you would expect not to do very well vs that player... vs 2000 player, you are around 10 levels away, so you would expect even more punta.

If you hang around that crowd a lot and keep at, listen up, try to improve basics, your level will improve, it just won't get to that 2000 level in a hurry.

There was a guy im Korea, a foreigner, Greg Bartz, who started TT as a rec player, maybe 1400 level in Busan way down south... I don't think he ever took formal lessons with a coach, but just played and played and played... but he paid attention... after 7 years, he was approaching 2000 level, and after 10 years, cracked WAY through that to become the most legendary foreign player there.

He is now around 2400 USATT and #10 seniors ranked.

It can be done with paying attention, some efficiency, and a lot of reps/failures.
I play with Greg almost every month . Small world :)


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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2022, 15:56 
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Looks like I am about to give the sport up. Have played almost 35 years (since 11), but my game continues to slip, and the younger guys continue to bite at my heels. Tonight a player beat me that I’d never lost to before. He’s out his time in, 5 years. Plays consistently, and I’m glad he’s improved, but I just keep sliding. A 2100 player came into our league, we have a league championship, and he won it easily. Next highest player is about 1600. Me, I’m around 1200 ish right now. I enjoy playing, but like winning more. We primarily established the club as a regional competition, because most players can’t get training, well, basically all of them except the 2100 guy and 1600 guy. The problem is the club has about 15000$ worth of top notch equipment, and without me doing administrative duties, it will fold. But if I quit playing, I really don’t want to do admin stuff. Anyone that’s done it for 20 years or longer (or at all) knows how difficult, taxing and draining it can be. So if I quit, nobody else can or will keep it going. That’s what others feel like as well. But, if I’m burned out, and don’t have anything left…there comes a time to quit all things I guess. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.


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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2022, 16:31 
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Sardius wrote:
Have a question. A player told me (very honest person), that he got his 1900 plus rating by listening to tips and consistently playing better players for years. No coaching.

I played a bunch of much higher players today and they pummeled me. Badly. Played 4 matches, I was 0-4 and 1-12 in games.

I’ve only been actively playing again since May.

Player ratings were:
2050
1930
1520
1600

My rating: 1150
Felt like a waste of time.


It's definitely NOT a waste of time if you get to do this often, and get to analyze what needs to be done. The main problem is such players won't often WANT to play against you, much in the way that you often wouldn't want to play with someone with a 800 or 900 rating. So if they're willing to play against you, do so every chance you get. Perhaps to make it interesting for them, they could give you a handicap, or perhaps you could arrange to play "set piece" points - they could, for instance, announce the spin they're going to put on the serve, or arrange to return your serve with topspin into your backhand corner so you can practice blocks, or with backspin to your forehand so you can practice looping the return. That way it becomes coaching, rather than a simple game.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2022, 17:11 
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Sardius wrote:
Looks like I am about to give the sport up. Have played almost 35 years (since 11), but my game continues to slip, and the younger guys continue to bite at my heels. Tonight a player beat me that I’d never lost to before. He’s out his time in, 5 years. Plays consistently, and I’m glad he’s improved, but I just keep sliding. A 2100 player came into our league, we have a league championship, and he won it easily. Next highest player is about 1600. Me, I’m around 1200 ish right now. I enjoy playing, but like winning more. We primarily established the club as a regional competition, because most players can’t get training, well, basically all of them except the 2100 guy and 1600 guy. The problem is the club has about 15000$ worth of top notch equipment, and without me doing administrative duties, it will fold. But if I quit playing, I really don’t want to do admin stuff. Anyone that’s done it for 20 years or longer (or at all) knows how difficult, taxing and draining it can be. So if I quit, nobody else can or will keep it going. That’s what others feel like as well. But, if I’m burned out, and don’t have anything left…there comes a time to quit all things I guess. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.


I'd try to suck in one or two assistants to help you with the duties. As far as the playing goes - don't know how many regular players you have, if you have enough, consider setting up two or three separate leagues, based on ratings (or estimated ratings). Designate a "league night", with one table per league level. The advantage of having a ratings system is that you can set up competition among players of roughly the same level.

As for not progressing in level for decades - that's really not unusual. I'd say most people reach a certain level after 4-5 years - be it 1100, 1500, 2000 or 2400 - and stagnate there for the rest of their lives. They face the same thing you do, there's always someone better who will be constantly beating them. And there are others they beat constantly. (Doesn't matter who you are, you might be Harimoto, there's still a half dozen Chinese players he hasn't been able to beat constantly.) If they haven't been getting coaching, some coaching might help them raise their level by, say, 50 or 100 points, and then they'll stagnate at that higher level. Then again, there ARE a few people who keep increasing their level over many years, but they aren't that many of them. The person Der Echte mentions was one, but he's also eventually stagnated, except he's stagnated at a much higher level.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2022, 04:55 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Sardius wrote:
Looks like I am about to give the sport up. Have played almost 35 years (since 11), but my game continues to slip, and the younger guys continue to bite at my heels. Tonight a player beat me that I’d never lost to before. He’s out his time in, 5 years. Plays consistently, and I’m glad he’s improved, but I just keep sliding. A 2100 player came into our league, we have a league championship, and he won it easily. Next highest player is about 1600. Me, I’m around 1200 ish right now. I enjoy playing, but like winning more. We primarily established the club as a regional competition, because most players can’t get training, well, basically all of them except the 2100 guy and 1600 guy. The problem is the club has about 15000$ worth of top notch equipment, and without me doing administrative duties, it will fold. But if I quit playing, I really don’t want to do admin stuff. Anyone that’s done it for 20 years or longer (or at all) knows how difficult, taxing and draining it can be. So if I quit, nobody else can or will keep it going. That’s what others feel like as well. But, if I’m burned out, and don’t have anything left…there comes a time to quit all things I guess. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.


I'd try to suck in one or two assistants to help you with the duties. As far as the playing goes - don't know how many regular players you have, if you have enough, consider setting up two or three separate leagues, based on ratings (or estimated ratings). Designate a "league night", with one table per league level. The advantage of having a ratings system is that you can set up competition among players of roughly the same level.

As for not progressing in level for decades - that's really not unusual. I'd say most people reach a certain level after 4-5 years - be it 1100, 1500, 2000 or 2400 - and stagnate there for the rest of their lives. They face the same thing you do, there's always someone better who will be constantly beating them. And there are others they beat constantly. (Doesn't matter who you are, you might be Harimoto, there's still a half dozen Chinese players he hasn't been able to beat constantly.) If they haven't been getting coaching, some coaching might help them raise their level by, say, 50 or 100 points, and then they'll stagnate at that higher level. Then again, there ARE a few people who keep increasing their level over many years, but they aren't that many of them. The person Der Echte mentions was one, but he's also eventually stagnated, except he's stagnated at a much higher level.

Iskandar


Good advice as always. We are trying to lure in more assistants, plus emphasizing basic duties for others as well. More help always makes things go better. Stagnate isa good word. I’m afraid for me I’m pretty much stuck where I am, and it will be hard to jump up more. I’ve seen many players top out over the years, and most of time, this would eventually lead to them quitting because they couldn’t improve or beat player Y. I guess I either have to adjust to my new position as 3rd or 4th, etc, or put the paddle up. Our club requires a ton of shepherding , which isn’t very enjoyable.


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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2022, 18:30 
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Sardius wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Sardius wrote:
Looks like I am about to give the sport up. Have played almost 35 years (since 11), but my game continues to slip, and the younger guys continue to bite at my heels. Tonight a player beat me that I’d never lost to before. He’s out his time in, 5 years. Plays consistently, and I’m glad he’s improved, but I just keep sliding. A 2100 player came into our league, we have a league championship, and he won it easily. Next highest player is about 1600. Me, I’m around 1200 ish right now. I enjoy playing, but like winning more. We primarily established the club as a regional competition, because most players can’t get training, well, basically all of them except the 2100 guy and 1600 guy. The problem is the club has about 15000$ worth of top notch equipment, and without me doing administrative duties, it will fold. But if I quit playing, I really don’t want to do admin stuff. Anyone that’s done it for 20 years or longer (or at all) knows how difficult, taxing and draining it can be. So if I quit, nobody else can or will keep it going. That’s what others feel like as well. But, if I’m burned out, and don’t have anything left…there comes a time to quit all things I guess. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.


I'd try to suck in one or two assistants to help you with the duties. As far as the playing goes - don't know how many regular players you have, if you have enough, consider setting up two or three separate leagues, based on ratings (or estimated ratings). Designate a "league night", with one table per league level. The advantage of having a ratings system is that you can set up competition among players of roughly the same level.

As for not progressing in level for decades - that's really not unusual. I'd say most people reach a certain level after 4-5 years - be it 1100, 1500, 2000 or 2400 - and stagnate there for the rest of their lives. They face the same thing you do, there's always someone better who will be constantly beating them. And there are others they beat constantly. (Doesn't matter who you are, you might be Harimoto, there's still a half dozen Chinese players he hasn't been able to beat constantly.) If they haven't been getting coaching, some coaching might help them raise their level by, say, 50 or 100 points, and then they'll stagnate at that higher level. Then again, there ARE a few people who keep increasing their level over many years, but they aren't that many of them. The person Der Echte mentions was one, but he's also eventually stagnated, except he's stagnated at a much higher level.

Iskandar


Good advice as always. We are trying to lure in more assistants, plus emphasizing basic duties for others as well. More help always makes things go better. Stagnate isa good word. I’m afraid for me I’m pretty much stuck where I am, and it will be hard to jump up more. I’ve seen many players top out over the years, and most of time, this would eventually lead to them quitting because they couldn’t improve or beat player Y. I guess I either have to adjust to my new position as 3rd or 4th, etc, or put the paddle up. Our club requires a ton of shepherding , which isn’t very enjoyable.
Hi Sardius,

Maybe try to focus on the fun of the sport instead of winning. Set some challenges for yourself. Try some new equipment, learn new serves, stop playing matches and focus on moving excercices.

Try to get a certain number of repetitions, set practice records, ...

Put some fun in the sport you love and create some succesfull experience for yourself. Thats what I do when i am in a slump. My favorite exerxice BH, mid FH, BH wide FH. Doing this for 10 min gets pe high as F*** on the sport again


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2022, 20:26 
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As I said, leverage the ratings system. If you can't beat the top players in the club, set up a league system where you can play amongst a group that has rough parity, so you can have competitive matches. And designate one night a week to do this, the other days can be for free play or practice.

I suppose, while it's frustrating not to be able to beat the top player (because they're rated high above you), think about how frustrating it is from THEIR point of view. If everyone in the club is at a much lower level, they won't have anyone they can improve against, and playing isn't that much fun because they regularly beat everyone.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2022, 23:10 
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One thing catches my eye here. "I enjoy playing, but I enjoy winning more". If you are only playing to win, there is no true enjoyment of the sport most of the time. As has been noted, many players hit a level and stay there. I've been in the 1700-1900 USATT for many, many years now. I used to be very focused on winning, and not enjoying the sport if I lost. But I was reminded, this is supposed to be fun. Enjoy the relationships you've built. Enjoy the exercise it gives you. Enjoy the challenge of trying to learn new skills.

If you think you will only get better by playing better players, you are fooling yourself. Playing better players will help you identify your main weaknesses. You learn the most from your losses. Take an analytical mental view. Really think about why you lost points. Target skills you can work on. Then, work on them in non game settings. Like, with a coach or a robot. Or even a better player that can give you tips on your form. And then when you play matches, use those skills you're trying to improve. You will often lose even more at first, but for long term growth, using those new skills so they become natural is the only way. You could also try different equipment and styles to keep things fresh.

Do not despair. Playing should be fun. Remove the dependence on winning=fun, focus more on just enjoying the aspects of sport and challenge and friendship. And you might find you not only enjoy the sport more, but it helps you relax and play better.

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