OOAK Table Tennis Forum

After about 3 weeks of testing and training, I am beginning to round back into form with my long pips game. I have a tournament this weekend and will be using the Hellfire X. I've tested Hellfire X, Spectre, Dornenglanz, Dr Neubauer Punch and Grass D Tec S. Many sessions on the robot and a couple of sessions with my coach led me to focus on the Hellfire X for now.

On my Stiga Cybershape blade, I get the most "wobble" effect out of the Hellfire X. I think it has the most grip of any of these. My coach said that the Dornenglanz was similar when it came to producing backspin against topspin, but that the Hellfire X seemed to have a more unpredictable movement. Since my blade is so stiff, I like having that extra grip, especially for hitting, although it does make touch on the short balls more difficult.

Spectre is a good rubber, I think maybe easier to control on my blade than the Hellfire X, but also less grippy and less reversal. I may revisit this rubber if I want to balance out control a bit more. I felt like it attacked well.

The Dr N Punch is very different from other long pips. I feel like it acts more like a medium or short pip. It's definitely made for hitting, there was very little spin reversal or long pip effect. I may also revisit this one later once I gain better control and improve my hitting form.

The Grass D Tec S on my blade, I was surprised by the relative lack of reversal I was seeing. My coach also saw it. We were both surprised, since on other blades it has had very good reversal. Coming off the Cybershape, however, it just wasn't doing much. Good control on blocks, ok for hitting. This is one of those situations where the blade/rubber combo does not mesh, I think, as I've used Grass D Tec on other blades in the past and liked it for defense, as do many other people.

I'm thinking of ordering a sheet of the Desperado Reloaded to try. I also have a sheet of Dr N Killer Pro to try. If I have decent success this weekend with the Hellfire X I'll probably stick with that short term, as I have another tournament at the end of the month. I'm playing mostly players rated higher than me, so I'll be able to judge the potential pretty well.

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"Don't let a win get to your head or a loss to your heart"
USATT Rating: 1730
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Sauer & Troger Hellfire X OX

Regarding the question of long pips vs. anti, I can agree with the general consensus on the strengths/weaknesses.

The frictionless anti excels in spin reversal and reducing speed. No long pip can compare to it in either category. However, to play anti effectively, you have to either be very good at twiddling, or you have to be very active in stepping around to loop with the forehand.

The strength in my game when I was at my peak rating was attacking with the long pips. I also had a pretty decent long pips serve. In terms of attacking and serving, long pips are better for me than anti. There's also opportunity to create your own spin with the pips.

I feel like I can say after over 2 years of training with anti and playing in multiple tournaments, for the way I play right now, the pips are a better choice. I still intend to work on my twiddle. As has been noted, to take your game to a higher level, you need to be able to use inverted on the backhand as a change-up.

_________________
"Don't let a win get to your head or a loss to your heart"
USATT Rating: 1730
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Sauer & Troger Hellfire X OX

Hey Dwruck. How long did it take you to adapt to the speed change from the Stork to LP. I’m so used to how dead the anti is that I’m scared it’s going to take me an age to come to terms with the switch. Any reassuring words you can give me please?

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Tango Ultra 2mm black, DMS Storkraft 1.2mm red, DMS Invictus
Well done bat!

Interesting comparison of pips. I am now playing with Dtecs with my carbon blade, but I am not totally confident with it - control is lacking and I have trouble with pressure shots, so I end up with too passive shots or bit too many easy mistakes. And don't find the extra disturbance as I hoped for. Games go ok, but I am not totally happy. With my previous Hellfire X I was able to play more active as it grips the ball better and control felt a bit better. Maybe the Hellfire X is best option...

Hi dingwol2, I would say that I am still adapting to the speed. Where I find the most difficulty is on the short balls. I am still "bumping" more aggressively, as you would need to do with the anti. That causes the ball to go sailing well off the back line. I need to re-learn to be far more gentle on those touch shots. Against loops, I have found that what I learned with anti about having a steady hand on the blade is helpful. I am also working on making my grip lighter to help offset. Another thing that helps is if I can block the ball more towards the tip of the blade, rather than in the middle. That being said, while I will miss some shots due to the touch being off, I am also missing less balls already because with the pips it's not as blade angle dependent, especially against softer loops. I'm also standing a little bit further back from the table.

Roy, it sounds like you are finding the same thing on your carbon blade as I am. When I played with a more defensive or all-around blade I really liked how the DTecS performed. On the carbon blade, not so much. If anything I felt I got less reversal. I think on a fast carbon blade that having something with more grip will give just a little extra dwell that will aid control. But I've only been at this now for 3 weeks, to be fair. Still, I'm feeling pretty solid about that assessment right now.

_________________
"Don't let a win get to your head or a loss to your heart"
USATT Rating: 1730
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Sauer & Troger Hellfire X OX

Cheers dwruck. I took my old set up to a match tonight to have a knock beforehand. That was a tachi with dtecs. It was sooooo lively! I sent the ball way long.

I have 2 more league matches then my Lp project will be on!

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Tango Ultra 2mm black, DMS Storkraft 1.2mm red, DMS Invictus
Well done bat!

Playing fast ox LP on a blade like the Cybershape carbon sounds quite a challenge as such blades were not intended to have any braking effect but quite the opposite. Perhaps the Cybershape wood version would work better being a bit slower and softer.

The key thing is dwell time imo.

Played in a tournament on Saturday with the Hellfire X and, considering I've only been back to long pips for maybe a month at most, I had some pretty solid results. After the disaster in the last tournament my rating is down to just above 1700. I was competitive with everybody rated below 2000 and pulled off two upsets, one over a player rated about 20 points higher than me, another over a player rated about 100 points higher. Lost 11-9 in the fifth game to a player rated almost 200 points above me.

Compared to where I stood relative to the table with the anti, I had to take a half step back to handle harder shots. Passive blocks were VERY effective with the Hellfire X OX on the Cybershape Carbon. Went back low, fast and with a good amount of spin reversal. When I missed, it was because I had too open of a blade angle, a leftover effect from my anti game. I didn't get much chance to attack with the pips, but when I did it was effective and it filled a hole in my game that I had with the anti. My biggest area of weakness was, as I expected, touch shots with the pips. Too often on short and slow balls I went into the ball too hard, like I would do with anti. But I will develop that skill again. When I did get pushes in, they were effective and forced confusion with my opponents.

With two tournaments coming up in the next six weeks, I'm going to focus on training with the Hellfire X OX. It feels like a good fit for my game and what I want to do right now.

_________________
"Don't let a win get to your head or a loss to your heart"
USATT Rating: 1730
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Sauer & Troger Hellfire X OX

Thanks for the update with Hellfire X. Sounds like a pretty good weekend at the tourney. Hope you continue to improve with HFX dwruck. Would be curious to hear about pips durability after you get more play time with Hellfire X. thx

I've been tempted to try Hellfire X in the past and still am. Being that I've played Dornenglanz for so long it sounds like HFX would be a good fit. I've heard Hellfire X and DG are similar in playing characteristics but HFX having more grip and little slower but still a lot of reversal and better for occasional hitting. I'm sticking to my current setup for a bit trying to not EJ so much lol but i will try it at some point.

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"Success is on the same road as failure; success is just a little farther down the road."

Gambler OS Kevlar | Yasaka Mark V 2.0 | SL Dornenglanz OX

Donic Defplay Senso Classic | Yasaka Mark V 2.0 | Butterfly Fent Long II 0.5

Hellfire x is a good rubber. All the products released by sauer and troger are excellent. However in my personal experience dornenglanz offers better spin reversal on active shots and is better able to hit through backspin balls. There is very little passive spin reversal on any modern long pimple, however dornenglanz generates a lot of spin reversal on active shots such as rolls / lifts, hitting, chopping and flicks. If you are used to playing with dornenglanz I would just stick with it.

I will continue to update the group as I use it more, especially when it comes to the durability!

Rob M, I see you are using a S&T blade, what are the properties of that blade? Just curious, because if we have different blade compositions, the performance could be different. I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but in one of my lessons with my coach we compared the Hellfire X to Dornenglanz. Both did indeed have good reversal. He felt that my hits with Hellfire X were a little more effective and that when defending the ball had a little more "wobble". I think both are good rubbers, this was my and my coach's impressions on my blade.

_________________
"Don't let a win get to your head or a loss to your heart"
USATT Rating: 1730
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Sauer & Troger Hellfire X OX

I appreciate that. My only real concern with dornenglanz is it can be hard to find at times. Where I've been buying them in the US goes out of stock sometimes and with dornenglanz they don't last as long as other LPs I've used, I need to be able to get a few sheets from time to time. I bought two sheets a couple months ago and since then the price went up an additional $5 from the same company which make me wanna With the price being near the same of Hellfire X now, it's getting more tempting to give that one a try once I use up the 4 sheets of DG I currently have. I still love DG and if I can find a reputable supplier with reasonable prices (including shipping to the US) there is a good chance I'll stay with it.

_________________
"Success is on the same road as failure; success is just a little farther down the road."

Gambler OS Kevlar | Yasaka Mark V 2.0 | SL Dornenglanz OX

Donic Defplay Senso Classic | Yasaka Mark V 2.0 | Butterfly Fent Long II 0.5

Table Tennis 11 in Europe sells Dornenglanz and ships to USA. They sell Dornenglanz for a good price and offer an excellent service and shipping. I cant recommend them highly enough.

Equipment reviews are very subjective so take what i say with a grain of salt. The Zeus blade has soft Kiso Hinoki outer plies and has medium flex giving good dwell for active pimple shots like hitting and sideswiping. The Flex allows for excellent looping and counter hitting on both sides of the blade. Its speed is probably the lower end of the OFF - range. Its marginally slower then a Timo Boll ALC for reference. The Zeus blade is made for an active long pimple game style. It is not designed for passive blocking. Im sure there are much better, more rigid blades for passive blocking. The problem with these very rigid blades is their difficulty looping on the FH and BH.

I tested the Hellfire X, Leviathan 1a and Dornenglanz, side by side, on identical setups thereby reducing variables. I used multiple copies of the Nittaku Shake Defense and the Sauer and Troger Zeus blades both with Tenergy 05 on the FH. In my personal experience i found both the Leviathan 1a and Dornenglanz produced better spin reversal on active shots then Hellfire X. Non of the above mentioned rubbers produced much spin reversal on passive blocking. Leviathan 1a and Dornenglanz are both produced by Spinlord and are very similar rubbers. Leviathan 1a has slightly firmer and larger pimples then Dornenglanz which benefit more active shots like hitting, sideswiping, chopping and rolls/lifts.

"Wobble" is a hard property to characterise. In my personal experience "wobble" only affects certain players. I play at a USATT 1900-2000 level and most players at this level aren't affected by wobble. But during my testing all 3 rubbers produced some good sink effect during BH to BH counter hitting rallies. Leviathan 1a probably produced the most noticeable counter hitting sink effect.