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PostPosted: 22 May 2024, 20:46 
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Both pros and amateurs are stilldoing illegal serves and they Will more and more if the "beloved" ITTF DOES not do anything in this respect .
Yes,I admit I do some illegal serves here and there ,Why? Because the opponent keeps getting advantage of their illegal serves.

And you? The following video clip IS really interesting .






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PostPosted: 22 May 2024, 21:57 
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In the local-level league I play in it is completely normal to keep giving illegal serves in the sense people are getting amazed if you actually serve legally. Pointing out or warning them about it has no result or effect whatsoever. Even so that I was once almost beaten to death, just because I told the guy that during server you must not hide the ball. People here are getting hurt when you point out to their illegal servers and everyone is okay with these serves, so there is not much we could doo.

I, of course, give off completely legal serves, maybe this is why I lose some of my matches. :rofl:

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PostPosted: 23 May 2024, 17:24 
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From years of experience in local league play, there are two areas which I feel cause the most friction amongst players.

1. The dislike of pimples - akin to be considered cheating if you use them. I've heard a player who lost to my friend (who uses LP's on his BH) walk round after the game, shake hands and say "well played bat". The implication being he'd have beaten my friend if it wasn't for his Long Pimples.

2. Foul serves. And it happened again last night at a match I was watching in our Summer league (a more relaxed and fun version of our winter league). Our team member served quick and wide and the opponent failed to return it and complained our player didn't throw the ball up first. He was right. Our player did foul serve. There ensued a tasty discussion during which it was pointed out to the complaining player that he too served out of his hand, so if he wanted to receive legal serves, he should put his own house in order first and serve legally himself. Both players then tried at least for a short while to throw the ball up but both then continued to foul serve.

After the match the umpire (one of the complaining players team mates - so not one of our team) told me he felt like he'd been put in a very uncomfortable position.

This sums it up for me. Very few of our senior league players watch YouTube videos day after day of top international players - and not many of our younger players either. They serve illegally because they have done for years. Enforcing rules at the top won't change the habits of players who've served illegally for years in local leagues. As a league we've made announcements to all members to serve legally, linked to what that means and looks like. Still it continues. I've pulled players up on illegal serves in the passed when I've been umpiring and been told "it's not the olympics here", to which I reply "so if you chose to not throw the ball up and claim it's ok, I chose to catch the ball, walk round to your side and smash it passed you. You can't pick and chose which rules you want to follow".

No one gets paid to umpire at our local league matches. It's a duty shared by members of the teams or people watching. No one wants to get in to a fight. No one, or very few go looking for confrontation. Most want to win, to have fun. For some winning is the fun. For other's it's not. As a coach, the hard part for me is explaining to young players starting out, or trying to improve the need to serve legally only for them to reply "well no one else does". And I've also had a team mate, pack up and drive back home after he was called (correctly) for foul serving - "I don't drive 40 mins to come here and get told that...".

It's a bit like doping in a way. If you can't police it or enforce it should you just let anything go? Ultimately when coaching, I insist of legal serves. Eventually if I can get enough kids to do that, over time it will filter through as they grow up with "good habits" rather than bad. I simply doubt I'll live long enough to see that day though. In the meantime, I think it's important, if you know you are about to play someone who foul serves that you make it clear upfront to both the player concerned and the umpire that you want "legal" serving to be enforced. Don't catch the ball part way through a match when you are losing and complain. All that does is wind up people who'll accuse you of only complaining because you are losing and that you didn't say anything when you were winning points.

Tricky topic. Interesting topic. Very difficult to keep everyone happy or to find a realistic solution.


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PostPosted: 23 May 2024, 18:40 
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For players of a certain age (i.e. if you're above, say, 50) and learned to play in their youth, what's considered "illegal" today wasn't illegal when they were in their prime. So it's not uncommon to come across people who serve "illegally" in the course of an evening at the club. And no one particularly cares, because these aren't competitive matches in tournaments, and no one knows any better. The only ones who complain are those who took up the game relatively recently (i.e. within the last 15 years). Mind you, these aren't hidden serves or anything of the sort - these guys learned to play BEFORE such things became common. More of the "upward toss wasn't high enough" type serve. Heck, some of these people still play to 21 points.. :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 23 May 2024, 19:07 
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iskandar taib wrote:
For players of a certain age (i.e. if you're above, say, 50) and learned to play in their youth, what's considered "illegal" today wasn't illegal when they were in their prime. So it's not uncommon to come across people who serve "illegally" in the course of an evening at the club. And no one particularly cares, because these aren't competitive matches in tournaments, and no one knows any better. The only ones who complain are those who took up the game relatively recently (i.e. within the last 15 years). Mind you, these aren't hidden serves or anything of the sort - these guys learned to play BEFORE such things became common. More of the "upward toss wasn't high enough" type serve. Heck, some of these people still play to 21 points.. :lol:

Iskandar


I see your point.However, the rules are for everybody,both amateurs and pros,right?

The only solution at local leagues might be to let people serve illegally only if they do not get a clear advantage in the game, just like putting the ball in play even if the serve is illegal .

The problem is when the serve is illegal and the opponent does get a clear advantage- that's the reason why they do an illegal serve , by the way .


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PostPosted: 23 May 2024, 19:54 
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I am tempted to believe that the rules should be the same for everybody. The main problem with these illegal servers that they ensure unfair advantage over the opponents and the ones playing fairly with legal movements. But oh well, what could we do? Nothing, because we wouldn't be able and we don't want anyway.

With these unorthodox movements unorthodox spins and curves are being made, just ridiculous. I am not doing illegal serves against illegal serves, because I am more intelligent than the older fellas. Interestingly, in Hungary not only the elderly people, but the youngers ones are also doing illegal serves, mainly the ones who have been tought by a coach also doing illegal serves.

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PostPosted: 23 May 2024, 20:42 
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It so happened at a league match that the opponent was doing illegal serves and getting unfair advantage all the time.In the second set he kept in the same vein.We protested against this unfair play and the umpire gave the opponent a warning.

The opponent started serving legally and finally lost the match .Hence, the paramount importance of this topic ,


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PostPosted: 24 May 2024, 03:04 
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Waiting for a video that is titled "Boosting is everywhere", but not likely will ever see that.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2024, 14:07 
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If it's an actual competitive league then sure, enforce the rules. Just don't be surprised if you visit some club (especially around here) and play against an older guy who doesn't toss the ball as high as you think they should. If you're going to go around and insist that all recreational players everywhere "use the same rules" I think you're going to be seen as a Karen.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 24 May 2024, 17:32 
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iskandar taib wrote:
If you're going to go around and insist that all recreational players everywhere "use the same rules" I think you're going to be seen as a Karen.

Iskandar


In an ideal world the recreational players should also abide by the rules but I understand it is hard to recommend them they should,especially old guys with their robotic illegal toss .However, there are some in my club who are willing to learn and do not make faces when corrrected.

It is also a question of EGO suppression or rather,annihilation of it.The sooner you kill your ego, the sooner you become happier in ALL aspects of life.You can very well observe this in this forum as well. Ego driven posts,ego hurt observations when IN REALITY, life is more simple.

Back to topic.It would be a good idea to incorporate changes in TT to make it even more attractive.Some people argued about the need for a cardboard net,extension of the table and so on.

Since the serve is vital in the game , in my opinion, this is the first rule that should be given more clarity , or else, we will keep on watching scenes where both pro and amateurs will protest creating negative tension and stress .Youtube channels are full of video clips which show illegal serves have been being done for a long time already.

This is like a cancer.It must be stopped or it will ruin the sport


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PostPosted: 24 May 2024, 18:23 
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This just in,folks.Please, just see from 3.45 to 3.50. Olah complaining to the umpire making wild gesticulations with his hand .



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PostPosted: 26 May 2024, 09:50 
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I had a long talk with one of the players I train about illegal serves in comps... and what he legally can and should do... which is go to control desk and tell referee... and get an umpire for the match... if no umpire provided for the match, then my advice for my player vs an opponent continually illegally serving was this...

DO better illegal serves than the opponent.

YES, this means finger tip serves done in front of the endline if needed.

If opponent refuses to serve illegally, then out do them in what they do best.

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PostPosted: 26 May 2024, 21:23 
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This issue will never go away unless.............

We have people at our club aged from 10 to 83. Our 83yo is one of the worst out of hand servers you will see. He's tried to change but can't. Some people complain. What do we do? Ban the 83yo.

No. But we can't necessarily let it slide, but maybe provide a regular reminder to appear to be encouraging change.

The only practical thing we can do to make change is to simply make sure that every NEW player that comes through the door is told how to serve properly and insist that they do. Over time it will change.

Unfortunately its too late for the older generation, unless you want your local club to fold.

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PostPosted: 26 May 2024, 22:32 
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A GOOD ADVICE TO REMEMBER.

INFORMAL WARNING TO RESOLVE ALL THE TROUBLES.

Hi, Anders
As being employed for years as table tennis umpire, let me a hint to dissolve all the problems you described here.
— Umpire is legally entitled to give INFORMAL warning, in friendly manner, to a server so as to discourage him (her) from faulty serving onwards.

Be happy
https://i.postimg.cc/RCdYNZFG/IMG-20231 ... 44-329.jpg

Igor Novick
umpire in charge of racket control


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PostPosted: 26 May 2024, 23:13 
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ONE MORE ADVICE ON FOULLY SERVING.

What is to be done when no umpire is there.??

Just take the action as described afore here, -- that a suffered player should address a claim directly to the offending server. If, afterwards, the offender does continue with foully serving, a player may, on his own, score a penalty point in loud voice.

Be happy all.


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