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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2008, 18:12 
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when i played a bit with 2 time world champ jiang jiliang he did a ph flick that was amazing. all penholds should study jj's subtle mastery at the 24 second mark of this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AI2kqUC_JQ

rick


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PostPosted: 17 Oct 2008, 22:13 
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ooolllllllllllllllld

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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 03:20 
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Silver wrote:
ooolllllllllllllllld


silver

the shot and technique are timeless and the player, jj is arguably one of the best players of all time..

the wrist flick fake kill, whether executed by a ph or smooth player, and regardless of level will *never* be old and will continue to be the most effective way to get a single point in table tennis for the rest of eternity...

study this clip and learn from a two time world champion and it just might be the smartest thing you do all month..

that is, if wrist flick fake kills are important to you...



8)

rick


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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 12:28 
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Nobody does that shot a meter back from the table anymore.

There's a reason why.

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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 12:44 
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Silver wrote:
Nobody does that shot a meter back from the table anymore.

There's a reason why.


Silver

JJ is a two time world champion and you're not.

There's a reason why.


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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 14:02 
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Find me a video of any current chinese player in the last 10 years using that shot

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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 16:07 
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Silver wrote:
Find me a video of any current chinese player in the last 10 years using that shot


Silver

Sorry dude, you will have to find that video yourself.

When you do, please feel free to post it. In the alternative, please feel free to post a video of yourself demonstrating a more effective shot than jj's wrist flick. Furthermore, if you have already established your world class expertise on the subject and I have yet to see it then please provide a link so that I may get up to speed.

Barring all that, I highly recommend you study jj's technique. And while you're at it please take note of the way I smoke him two times down the line.

Notice how jj and I are really enjoying ourselves?


8)


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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008, 16:35 
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:roll:

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 04:27 
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Jiang Jialiang may perform that flick of the wrist a meter behind the table, but that doesn't mean it is out of date. The essential element of this stroke is adding topspin to a fast forward hit. In JJ's time, playing with the 38 mm ball, this was absolutely necessary to get the ball on the table; in our time it does the same and more, because the 40 mm ball will land shorter. Modern pips-out penholders tend to stay closer to the table than JJ did in his day, since the ball loses speed faster, but that doesn't mean this technique is obsolete. Quite the contrary. Modern topspin equipment makes the ball go faster and with more spin than ever before; so topspin attacks have to be countered with more spin than ever before, too. Please look up what Andrew Gooding had to say about this matter about a half year ago when he was training with a top Chinese player. Sorry Silver, you may be more or less right about the distance, but the stroke is still an indispensable asset to modern pips out penholder play. Besides, Jiang Jialang's game is about as outdated as the game of J.O Waldner or that of his buddy, Jörgen Persson. And hey, guess who at the age of over 40 made it into the semi-finals of the Olympics this year?

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 04:40 
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Kees wrote:
Jiang Jialiang may perform that flick of the wrist a meter behind the table, but that doesn't mean it is out of date. The essential element of this stroke is adding topspin to a fast forward hit. In JJ's time, playing with the 38 mm ball, this was absolutely necessary to get the ball on the table; in our time it does the same and more, because the 40 mm ball will land shorter. Modern pips-out penholders tend to stay closer to the table than JJ did in his day, since the ball loses speed faster, but that doesn't mean this technique is obsolete. Quite the contrary. Modern topspin equipment makes the ball go faster and with more spin than ever before; so topspin attacks have to be countered with more spin than ever before, too. Please look up what Andrew Gooding had to say about this matter about a half year ago when he was training with a top Chinese player. Sorry Silver, you may be more or less right about the distance, but the stroke is still an indispensable asset to modern pips out penholder play. Besides, Jiang Jialang's game is about as outdated as the game of J.O Waldner or that of his buddy, Jörgen Persson. And hey, guess who at the age of over 40 made it into the semi-finals of the Olympics this year?


kees

excellent post. heres a clip of my coach Danny Ho (right handed pips out penhold) smoking one of JJ's pushes). I have a love hate relationship with this type of shot....hate it because you get your butt spanked serverely if you put one a tad too high and love it because objectively its one of the most effective shots in all of table tennis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IopD-sv8JhM

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 04:50 
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Barely visible, but perfectly executed :D. It must have pleased JJ, even when losing the point because of it :wink:. Don't hate it, chum, just love it! I am teaching it to my 13 yo old son just now, making him watch Jiang's exercises and matches of over 20 yrs ago, and even though he finds it difficult to do he loves it also. It does need a blade and rubber combination capable of spin (and speed), though.

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 05:27 
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^ And this is why Speedplay is a mod here.

Well said!

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 05:42 
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speedplay wrote:
Rick, why do I get the feeling that you are trying to brag about you are playing with JJ?

Also, the fact that he is a 2 time world champion doesn't mean that his game is what is needed in the game today.

Fact is, it doesn't matter if Silver can hit this shot or not, cause knowing what to do and be able to execute it is two different things.

I have played a player who used to play in the Swedish first division, a level I will never be able to reach, yet I did beat him, cause his game is outdated (and he's getting to old) but in his prime he would have crushed me.

So please, do continue to share videos of great shot's, please pass on advices that you have been given, but don't try to brag about it and for [holy guy in the sky's] sake, don't turn this into a "Who do you know that is good" battle.

About the shot it self, didn't look that impressive to me, but I'm willingly admitting that I do not know if this shot still would be useful, but I haven't seen it being widely performed by today's pro players.


speed

dont confuse respect with bragging...they're a world apart. The only person I will ever brag about knowing or playing with is my son Christian Tyler. Also...I wasn't discussing the effectiveness of JJ's game as you say I am...Im simply talking about the effectiveness of one single type of shot. The shot might not look impressive to you but rest assured...its a truly remarkable and dependable shot. But what does JJ know? I would also add that I live in Vancouver and you live in Sweden so that means I have played against more penhold players in the last 4 months than you have in your entire lifetime....which is only to point out that I have had that much more time to learn from and appreciate what they can do that shakehands cant.

nice thread you started on waldi btw...you seem very respectful of his play

Rick


Last edited by Rick Anderson on 20 Oct 2008, 06:16, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 05:49 
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Kees wrote:
Barely visible, but perfectly executed :D. It must have pleased JJ, even when losing the point because of it :wink:. Don't hate it, chum, just love it! I am teaching it to my 13 yo old son just now, making him watch Jiang's exercises and matches of over 20 yrs ago, and even though he finds it difficult to do he loves it also. It does need a blade and rubber combination capable of spin (and speed), though.


Kees

My coach Danny did that 5 times to JJ and company and I even have JJ on video saying to my coach: "you're better than me". Six yrs after this video was taken my coach still talks about that statement (even though I think we all know that jj was joking). Heres another grainy clip..this time of basic footwork taught to us by JJ..

not the most exciting clip on you tube lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96zm6IqfmaQ

rick


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PostPosted: 20 Oct 2008, 09:38 
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speedplay wrote:
Playing against more penholders then I have certainly isn't something to write home about.....about his 2 championship titles and the fact that the both of you enjoy the game seems to me like a pitiful attempt to bring the other dude done with irrelevant facts.

About JO Waldner, yes, I sure do have loads of respect for that old guy as he often pulled out unexpected shots,


speed

playing against many penholders is something indeed to write home about..for the evolved player anyway.....mainly because it makes you a better player as a result of having trained against flatter and quicker hitters and someone (the penholder) who has an inherent advantage<due to the grip, at over the table play (which btw makes up 2/3 of the average rally)..and having played against someone who usually possess' better foot work...as a result of running around their bh their entire life

what *isn't* worth writing home about is beating your run-of-the-mill two winged looper...the same looper who gets picked apart by flat hitting penholds

you really think that 2 world titles is an irrelevant fact....? funny stuff :rabbit:

least we both like waldi, despite his irrelvevant world title

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