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 Post subject: Adham
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 01:23 
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Adham is on TTNetwork talking about stricter rules, testing and testing machines. :evil:

As I am new to these forums, I have some trouble navigating around. Thanks for your question. In fact the rule of the ITTF is very clear, once any equipment is approved by the ITTF it can not be altered. So even if butter is a healthy and natural product, you are not allowed to smear it on your racket because it would be considered an "additive". So, any "additive", be it healthy or not cannot be added to any ITTF approved or authorized equipment. However, your question is a very good one.
Let me explain the process of testing:

- ITTF will test rackets for all characteristics including, but not limited to thickness (4mm), glossiness, VOCs, flatness, etc.

- The test also includes an examination of the surface of the rubber and any indications of expansion

- As of 1 January we will have new testing equipmnent that will detect boosters and tuners which contain very low levels of VOCs (below 5 ppm) and we will also detect oils and any additives that have altered in any way the rubber.

Although the Boosters and Tuners are applied to the sponge, in fact they permuate into the rubber and cause it to expand, creating a "dome" effect in the middle of the racket. This is illegal for two reasons: a) may exceed 4 mm thickness in the middle, b) the surface is not evenly flat.

Now, regarding the posion. We analyzed 5 brands of Boosters/Tuners and we provided the reports to the compnaies that distribute vthem (manufacturers). When they saw our results, 3 of them immediately stated that they will stop production. In fact, in agreement with the Union of Manufacturers (FIT) all the manufacturers will stop such products by 1 January 2009.

My advice is not to use such addictives and instead get used to playing with legal equipment, it is easier to start now, than to suddenly have to change later.

Adham

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 08:29 
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Latest from Adam,


Originally posted by JimT

Originally posted by Peter C


Regarding Weixing's disqualification the simple truth is if you have a bat that's passed the test as legal, then it makes sense to use it in the match. Changing to another bat that has not been checked and is found to be illegal, could be construed as a way of cheating i.e. use a legal bat for the checks and use an illegal one in the match. The fact that bats are checked after the match is an indication the ITTF is possibly aware of that happening.



On ITTF tournaments you cannot simply bring out a racket from somewhere and claim that this is the one that they had checked. You surrender your racket to the director/umpire and it is being produced for you when you are called to the table. So there should be no need for the post-game check... unless they changed that process.


Hello, just a quick note in between 2 flights to explain the current ITTF racket testing procedures:

1. Every player has the right to a voluntary test. The result is given to the player without any sanctions or any consequences.
2. Until 30 June 2009, players are tested once before the match. If the racket passes the test, it is taken by an official directly to the table where the player will play. If the racket fails the test, the player is informed about the reason for which the racket failed the test (thickness, VOC, glossiness, etc.), and the player must play the match with another racket that must be tested immediately after the match.
3. Failing the after-the-match test disqualifies the player from the event & tournament (ITTF made an exception at the Austrian Open to allow the player to play in the Team Event).
4. The racket testing consists of checking for VOCs using the Enez device, strict check of the thickness of the racket covering (4 mm), check the flatness and even thickness across the surface of the racket, check for minimum friction factor and check for glossiness, etc.
5. As of 1 January 2009, in addition to above checks, an new device will also be used to check for the presence of boosters and tuners, as well as a lower tolernace for VOCs, and checking stretch marks of the rubber (expansion, dome effect, etc.).
6. As of 1 July 2009, only after-the-match racket tests will be conducted. There will only be voluntary tests before the match. If a player fails an after the match test the player will be disqualified from the tournament. A repeat offender will be subject to supsension (2 time offender would probably get a one year suspension) according to a policy to be developed by the ITTF in December 2008.

The main objective is to enforce the current rules of the ITTF as they pertain to rackets and to have all players playing internationally play on an even playing field as far as the racket is concerned.

I hope this explanation is informative.

Adham

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 09:15 
Hey Hookshot,
I was just wondering does the ITTF have a big list of glues and substances that effect the rubber that you cannot use or do they have a smaller list of glues and substances that effect rubber that you can use? I hope this question makes sense, if not just let me know and I will elaborate.
-Max


Last edited by gibxam on 04 Nov 2008, 14:43, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 09:30 
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They do not list any glues. It is up to us to make sure it will pass the Enez machine although nobody has one. LOL Kind of like driving without a speedometer in your car and trying not to break the law.
Rubber cement will not pass the Enez for several days. If left in the open, the VOCs will evaporate in 72 hours. It has VOCs. The reason I did not tell you to use the new glues is I have only tried one once and am not sure how to use them yet.
Also, I figured you will not be playing in a major tourney for a week or two more, Right?
Only 3 star tourneys are required to have an Enez so far. That is a pretty big tourney.
I have a glue called Tear Mender. I tried it on a blade with a GLASS smooth finish. It did not stick to the smooth surface. I will try it on another blade soon. Others are giving good accounts with it even with blades not sealed to a glass finish but with one or two layers of Poly. I will also try to sand or rough up the finish and try it again. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 14:27 
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Count Darkula
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Hookshot, the way I read it, it doesn't matter if there are no VOC's left in the rubber, but if the compound used has left any signs of alteration (which I assume would be cracks or stretch marks) then it won't pass. Do you read it this way?

I still don't see how this will play out with Tensors and the like which get stretched after ITTF tests the rubber by the addition of the sponge.

I don't agree with them getting so pedantic about VOC's on a health basis, but I can see some sense in wanting rubbers to be "as tested" when used, because if you allow an inch you should allow a mile if there are no set limits. However, I think a better approach would be to set limits because exposure to the environment is going to change a rubber somewhat (dust, sunlight, moisture, etc). At pro level where every meet has new rubbers, they may have greater control over this, but at amateur level it is unrealistic to expect. What's your view on this?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 14:52 
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Hi REB,
Yep, I agree.
I posted tis for a couple reasons, one, the "new" more sensitive tester.
The other for some of the wording like,,,Sheen.
Venus and some other rubbers change the "sheen" in the center where it contacts the ball alot. Will this be reason to DQ the bat? Again, they have made rules that cannot be evenly enforced. A ref having a bad day can ruin yours.
You mention tensors, I have been saying ALL Tensors are now illegal if you read the letter of the rule. Does not matter if it is from a manufacturer or not. He streached it "After testing" by the ITTF.
The only change I see a ligit reason for is VOCs. That can be justified.
Instead of trying to detect every chemical on earth, why not just enforce the 4mm rule and check for Vocs at a reasonable level? One that could represent a health hazard. After all, that is the reason it came to be in the first place. I think people would accept a reasonable VOC level, maybe even one set by the government like they do on MSDS forms.
By enforcing the 4mm rule, people could still use NON-VOC tuners on thinner sponge and still be legal. It is easy to check the 4mm limit yourself.
Why ban tensors? Have they banned tensor technology? Not that I have heard yet thier rules do ban them. But again, WHY? Is that technology somehow going to cause harm to the game? WHAT is the reason? When will the manufacturers be told, no more tensors or will they leave it to a ref to say, "That is advertized as a Tensor" so it is illegal? The top sheet is streached so it is not "as Tested by the ITTF". This could happen at any tourney as far as I can see.

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Last edited by hookshot on 04 Nov 2008, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 14:53 
RebTTE- I think your point about it being unrealistic for amateurs to change their rubber every meet is true however like Hookshot said I don't think they are testing as strictly for anyone except the pros. Am I right? Also I'm sure that they are simply using the health basis as just another reasons to help their case. Even though it is silly, its difficult for people to argue against this reason because then they appear like they do not care about public safety.

Hookshot- Hehe unless my garage gets up and buys its own Enez I don't think I'm in any danger of anyone discovering my deadly VOC infested Rubber Cement :wink:. In any case I'm excited to see what your results are.

EDIT: ....I love when you and another person are responding to the same post at the same time ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 15:37 
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Hey Max,

If they stated this only applied at Pro level, I would be ecstatic. That's EXACTLY what they should do IMO. However, it is still a problem no matter where you apply it for some people. The actual level they are applying it to, is 3 star tourneys and above in US (not sure about other countries), which while this is a pretty high level of TT consider the players who aren't used to this level of scrutiny that are coming up the ranks. They enter their first 3 star tourney with a racket that has always been usable to play against players they have to be at the top of their game to compete with. Suddenly their racket is rejected because there is an obscure problem like a blemish on the rubber or something. They have to play with there backup that they haven't used as much so its in good nic. It passes because of this, but its also a lot slower as it hasn't been "worn in". So they get thrashed and figure why bother! How is this good for the game? And as Hookshot said, the same racket may pass on one day and fail on another just because the ref is feeling mean.

I don't think this will directly affect me, however all these rules have a flow on effect. Players at lower levels don't know rules precisely but they are willing to try to spout them to their own advantage if they can. So at lower levels they will try to bully people that their racket is illegal using the rules loosely to back them up even though they don't really know what they are talking about. They get the support of others then because they sound credible and the others have heard something like this too. They don't need to be correct, because what they do is try to unsettle people into playing a poorer game by causing such disturbance. Seen it done, been the one they've tried to bully and believe me, some guys will try this sort of stuff on.

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S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 16:02 
RebTTE- I hadn't thought about your point about a up and coming player being demolished because there racket is illegal. One thing I'm curious about is even though it is considered a rule in 3 star tourneys does anyone have first hand experience about how strictly refs follow these rules? I would be very curious to know. It seems like in the long run it might even be better for the rules to be very strict now, then more people would object and the rules could be modified.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 16:10 
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A three star tourney might have open class players ranked 2700 and also have an under 800 event. All levels might be there. They will have to enforce all the rules now. I have seen kids show for their first tourney with illegal premades, rubber not ITTF approved. Nobody used to say anything. They will have to now. How can you make a cuttof for age or experience on equipment. There is trouble comming. :evil:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 16:21 
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hookshot wrote:
Latest from Adam,


Originally posted by JimT

Originally posted by Peter C


Regarding Weixing's disqualification the simple truth is if you have a bat that's passed the test as legal, then it makes sense to use it in the match. Changing to another bat that has not been checked and is found to be illegal, could be construed as a way of cheating i.e. use a legal bat for the checks and use an illegal one in the match. The fact that bats are checked after the match is an indication the ITTF is possibly aware of that happening.



On ITTF tournaments you cannot simply bring out a racket from somewhere and claim that this is the one that they had checked. You surrender your racket to the director/umpire and it is being produced for you when you are called to the table. So there should be no need for the post-game check... unless they changed that process.


Hello, just a quick note in between 2 flights to explain the current ITTF racket testing procedures:

1. Every player has the right to a voluntary test. The result is given to the player without any sanctions or any consequences.
2. Until 30 June 2009, players are tested once before the match. If the racket passes the test, it is taken by an official directly to the table where the player will play. If the racket fails the test, the player is informed about the reason for which the racket failed the test (thickness, VOC, glossiness, etc.), and the player must play the match with another racket that must be tested immediately after the match.
3. Failing the after-the-match test disqualifies the player from the event & tournament (ITTF made an exception at the Austrian Open to allow the player to play in the Team Event).
4. The racket testing consists of checking for VOCs using the Enez device, strict check of the thickness of the racket covering (4 mm), check the flatness and even thickness across the surface of the racket, check for minimum friction factor and
check for glossiness, etc.
5. As of 1 January 2009, in addition to above checks, an new device will also be used to check for the presence of boosters and tuners, as well as a lower tolernace for VOCs, and checking stretch marks of the rubber (expansion, dome effect, etc.).
6. As of 1 July 2009, only after-the-match racket tests will be conducted. There will only be voluntary tests before the match. If a player fails an after the match test the player will be disqualified from the tournament. A repeat offender will be subject to supsension (2 time offender would probably get a one year suspension) according to a policy to be developed by the ITTF in December 2008.

The main objective is to enforce the current rules of the ITTF as they pertain to rackets and to have all players playing internationally play on an even playing field as far as the racket is concerned.

I hope this explanation is informative.

Adham



my response to "Glossiness" was.............

Quote:
Yes, the racket surface cannot be "shiny", so the ITTF has an instrument that measures how shiny the rubber is under certain conditions, we call this "glossy" or "glossiness". Normally new bought rubber is OK, but if the rubber is treated or "baked" or exposed to sunlight for a long time it will become shiny or glossy.

Adham



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 17:49 
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Yes that's interesting MM... I never thought they'd bother checking for that...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 18:29 
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haggisv wrote:
Yes that's interesting MM... I never thought they'd bother checking for that...


I think that ITTF goes well over board.
The thing is All players should turn to PIP OUT rubbers to avoid Glosiness :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 18:42 
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I was actually thinking in reverse, you lose the glossiness where the ball hits the most. Still would not be even on the whole surface.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2008, 19:22 
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purger wrote:
haggisv wrote:
Yes that's interesting MM... I never thought they'd bother checking for that...


I think that ITTF goes well over board.
The thing is All players should turn to PIP OUT rubbers to avoid Glosiness :P



LOL! Good on purger :lol: 8)

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