OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Well, I've used the DG on my BBC 9-10-9 blade (2.0 Palio Conqueror on the inverted side) for three sessions at the club now, and my impressions of the DG are mixed, when compared to the Talon. I have not run the DG through the complete array of shots, but have worked on some of them. My robot is down and out for awhile, so I have to rely on human ball-feeders. I hope to eventually report on most all of the shots LP players use. Here are some observations on a few specific types of LP shots, comparing the DG with Talon...

Lifting/punch shots against backspin:

The spin reversal is definitely better with the DG than with the Talon. On playing a heavily backspun ball, the Talon often dumped balls into the net because it was more spin sensitive to such shots, and one needed to open the bat more to get those balls over the net. With the DG, I initially was dumping such backspun balls into the net as well, but not because of the "standard" effect of the backspin. It was because of the spin reversal which created topspin, and my balls were "topspinning" down into the net. So, I found that by lifting more aggressively, I could get those balls to carry farther and arc nicely--and often sharply--over the net. This was a favorite shot of mine with the old FLP, and now I have it again to some degree. I was not able to get this kind of reversal with the Talon. Whenever I'd punch or lift against backspin with the Talon, I had to do so more gently. I didn't get much spin reversal, and the spin on the ball was "killed" more than reversed, and the balls just flew long for lack of topspin on them. So, for lift or punch shots against backspin, the DG, IMO, is superior to the Talon.

BH Counter driving topspin

With the Talon, I spent hours with the robot trying to get this shot to land consistently. I tried harder, softer, spinnier shots; changed stroke angles, etc. When it was right, it was deadly. But it was inconsistent, as in landing maybe 60-70% of the time. Nathanso has this shot down, and I don't know how he can be so consistent with it, but I just simply couldn't be consistent with it. So I gave up on that shot.

With the DG, this shot is much more consistent. It has good control when rolling over softer shots (i.e.- when someone hits a harder-driving topspin to your backhand, and your take the pace off of the ball by "rolling" a slow-motion topspin backhand with the LP back to them) There was also good control when you ripped a harder BH topspin shot.

But here there was a trade-off with the Talon. With the DG, this shot carries more topspin and behaves more "normal" and is easier for the opponent to return. I believe that is simply because the DG is grippier when you get the pips to bend and is able to impart more topspin on a BH counter drive. When I managed to hit those counter drives with the Talon, my opponents had a much harder time returning them. The Talon hits a more dead(ly) ball that is harder to keep on the table--both for me and my opponent.

What was promising with the DG was that when I occasionally hit a counter drive in a "flat" way, with the blade at @ a 45-55 degree angle and no rising follow through to impart topspin, I was able to reproduce this "dead" Talon shot. But I only hit a few of those, and they were more by accident. I need to explore this some more.

Chop-block against topspin drives/loops

The Talon performed this shot well, and had this dangerous "braking" effect which my opponents found hard to consistently attack. Blocking very hard shots was a bit more of a challenge with the Talon. With the DG, I can take more pace off of the opponent's shot AND get better spin reversal IF (and I can't emphasize this too strongly!) you have an active wrist and chop down aggressively. Passive blocking doesn't cut it with the DG. After multiple loops by the opponent, the spin reversal is huge. Also, IMO, the chop block return of the DG comes off at a lower angle than the Talon. Again, a trade-off here: The Talon returns were a bit more troublesome (think "funky") for the opponent; the DG shots were slightly lower, spinnier, slightly more controllable, but more predictable for my opponent. My main practice partner, a good looper in the USATT 1850 range, had the same degree of difficulty returning chop blocks from the Talon and the DG, but for different reasons. The Talon, because of the "funk factor"; the DG, because of the spin reversal and low trajectory.

Short net play

The Talon seemed to me to have a better "feel" and therefore more precise control on the close-to-the-table touch shots, as compared to the DG. When playing the short net game, you don't really get a chance to "dig into" the ball with the pips, and so you rely more on precision touching the ball with just the surface of the pips. Because the surface of the pips on the DG seem more hard and "slippery" to me, I had a harder time with pin-point placement of angle shots, which is a big part of my game. With the Talon, I seemed better able to push or "glide" the ball wherever I wanted. With the DG, I have to "bump" it to a spot, if you get what I mean. But some guys may prefer that kind of feel. So, it's probably a matter of personal shot preference here.

One other important shot that I tried a bit but didn't really work on (and so won't comment here at length yet) was hitting against backspin. With the Talon, I really liked how I could rip backspins by driving the blade up at @ 45 degree angle. With the DG, it appears that I have to open the blade a bit more, and drive more "up" than "out", which for me is a more difficult shot to execute. But, I will work on it and report back.

Next shots I want to work on and report on: hitting against backspin (full report), pushing against backspin; sideswipe vs. backspin and topspin; twiddling and hitting FH. If there are other shots you guys can think of, let me know. I am not a long distance chopper, so I don't feel qualified to comment on that type of shot.

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USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Pardon my ignorance, but what rubber is "DG"? It seems like a rather good pip for close to the table game

_________________
"Si se imagina, se puede ^^"

Galaxy T-11+
FH: Donic Bluefire M3
BH: SpinLord Dornenglanz II (OX)

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SpinLord Dornenglanz

Cheers
Geddk

My English is not good enough to write so well the Talon but the Talon better overall everything. My league so many player used against me no spin balls and this is not love because the Long pimple hate no spin balls. But with the Talon the no spin balls not really problem because have very soft pimple making it easier to handle. First, it was difficult to handle the heavy underspin balls but i learn how to handle this also.

Wow, JW.. are we comparing the same Talon OX vs Dornenglanz OX? I'm comparing red sheets, attached with Donic glue sheets, and the pips are kept squeaky clean (as OOAK is surely tired of reading about from me).

With regards to the all-important BH LP drive, I found Dorny to be unpredictable and unable to take power. Sometimes it would "fly right" - which, incidentally, was a nearly flat ugly/skidding ball -- and sometimes it would careen off, going way high. It was as if the pips had buckled on one of the shots but not the other, and one way worked and the other most certainly did not. CW from BBC tried hitting with Dorny and declared it a fail after less than a minute..

Examining Dorny's widely spaced narrow pips, I was left wondering how many were actually contacting the ball on any given stroke, and how consistent the contacting pip count was from stroke to stroke (I'm guessing "not very").

I'm taking Talon 0.9 to the club tonight for the first time.. should be interesting!

I wonder when there may be a consensus on results?JW you are doing a great job on your reviews! For me,at this point I seem to get best results with the DG when I add more power to just about Any shot as compared to Talon.Not quite sure what this indicates?

_________________
Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH Andro Blowfish+ 2.0 (Black);BH Giant Dragon National Team Talon OX(Red)
Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH TSP Spectol Blue 2.0-2.1 (Black); BH Strahlkraft OX (Red)
Blade: TSP 8.5 Balsa: FH Joola Express Ultra Max (Black): BH Dornenglanz II OX (Red)

USATT Rating: 1682

Great first review Jim! It's a really good comparison that you gave. You play so well with the Talon, I'm surprised that you're trying out something else. I'm really finding my game with the Talon now, especially hitting and blocking. So, I won't be tempted to change. I will be interested to read the rest of your review, I know the hit against back spin is important for you, so that will be key. I'm sorry to hear that your robot is down, but I know you have a good practice partner there. Hope to see you at the Shorewood tournament on December 3!

_________________
"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

It indicates 'Dorny's widely spaced narrow pips' as nathanso said...with more power you get more pips on the ball...

_________________
EJ with over 120 blades (30+ def) and 220 rubbers (30+ LP), all active or new

nathanso, I was also somewhat perplexed by our very different findings with the DG. I use the exact same setup as you--only on a BBC 9-10-9 blade. Perhaps our different findings are based upon the hardness of our strokes. You really rip that BH shot, and I have more of a roll or "controlled" counterdrive. It might very well be as you say, that the "pip count" at contact may not be consistent, and on very aggressive strokes where the margin of error is less, this would make for an inconsistent shot. With my slower shots, perhaps it is not as critical, and I land a much higher percentage of shots. I did notice one thing, however--when I twiddled the bat and tried to drive the ball with a FH stroke with the DG, I couldn't find any consistency to that shot. With the Talon, I could twiddle and hit a fairly consistent shot that way, provided I came up sharply at the moment of contact and really bent the pips.

I have a tournament coming up next weekend in Minneapolis, and I think I am going to go back to the Talon for that tournament. I think I need to spend a bit more time with the DG before I feel comfortable hitting a wide array of shots.

I am truly "in between" right now with these two LPs. Not a good place to be with a tournament coming up. I like some of the shots I am able to execute with the DG, but I also like some of the other aspects of the Talon better. Ah, well, we'll see what happens.

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Yep, stick with "the devil you know" Jim. Get to know the other devil in your spare time

Gee, wouldn't you love some pips called "The Devil You Know"!?

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Good luck at the tourney Jim! Hopefully you'll get above 2000. Don't forget to enter the Shorewood tournament, hopefully we'll be in the same group and I can record it this time!

_________________
"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

That's good advice, Reb! Doug, thanks for the encouragement! I will indeed see you on December 3rd.

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Nice! Talon vs. Talon. Or maybe by that time, Talon vs. DG. I'll look forward to hearing about how you do in Minnesota and your continued trials with DG! Where do you get the DG from?

_________________
"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

Well, I got my robot working again, and had a chance to hit with it, testing out some more shots with the Dornenglanz--primarily the ones listed above. Comparing the DG with the Talon on the above-mentioned shots, here are my findings...

Pushing against backspin

Once you get used to the sensitivity of the Talon to incoming backspin and adjust your angle accordingly (open it a bit more) when you push back, the Talon gives a nice, consistent low push back. When you push with the DG against such shots, if you push with the blade open to try to bend the pips, it has a tendency to pop the ball up a bit. Not much, but more than the Talon.

If you close the bat just a little and push forward and down, with the DG you can get some very direct, low, and consistent pushes which kill the spin on the ball. What I like about this shot with the DG, is that if you close the blade a little more, you start reversing the spin on the ball and creating topspin. Of course, this stroke is not forward and down, but forward and slightly up. But when you hit them fast, it is sometimes hard for the opponent to tell the difference. What I'm trying to say is that you can make the push with DG (which creates a no-spin ball) look a LOT like the rising punch shot which results in topspin. It's just a slight angle change, and the former shot bends the pips, while the latter rebounds off of the surface of the pips, and produces the reversal.

Sideswipe shot against backspin

Against a backspun ball, this shot was very effective with both the Talon and the DG. Again, because of the Talon's sensitivity to backspin, the angle was a little different when executing this shot (with the Talon, you had to strike the ball a little farther under the ball to get it to clear the net).

Twiddling and hitting FH

For me, the Talon gave me the most control on this shot. Against topspin, you had to hit the ball very flat with foreward swing and an open blade, and be SURE to bring the bat up a little, but sharply, at the point of contact with the ball. This gave it the necessary topspin to bring the ball down on the other side. I had problems trying to execute this shot with the DG. I am going to experiment with different strokes and angles, but thus far I cannot be consistent at all with the DG hitting against topspin.

Hitting against backspin was another matter. You can loop against long backspin balls with both the Talon and the DG, provided your bat is vertical and you come into the ball with a "80% straight up, 20% forward" type of swing (would I call that @ 75 degree angle swing?). Anyway, you really have to put a lot of energy into this stroke to get this to land on the other side of the table, as most of your energy is going up rather than out.

hitting against backspin

Both the Talon and DG are good at this, but you must change the angle of your stroke. With the Talon, one can rip over the top of a backspun ball at a 45 degree angle and return it that way (you CANNOT be wimpy on this stoke--you MUST have the ball bend the pips and drive this shot). To me, the Talon seems to grip the ball better and enable one to drive it back at this angle. With the DG, every backspin shot I tried to hit with this blade angle ended up in the net. However, when I hit with a more "up and out" stroke with the DG, the balls arced sharply down on the other side. And this shot was consistent. Also, a slower "roll shot" was possible with the DG. I had trouble executing that slower roll shot with the Talon--it seemed to really favor hitting the ball harder.

So, which is better at this shot? IMO, It depends upon what angle you prefer to drive the backspin ball back at, or whatever stroke you are more comfortable with.

chopping away from the table

OK, I had said previously that I am not a great chopper, but I do occasionally get moved back and have to play those kinds of shots. With the Talon, I could not seem to get a consistently low ball against topspin, and I had a little harder time controlling the depth/distance of the chop. I'm sure that has a lot to do with my bad technique. However, With the DG, I got a VERY consistent low ball when I chopped back, provided that I came STRAIGHT down on the back of the ball as the ball was still moving horizontally and was not yet starting a more vertical descent. I seemed to be able to control the depth/distance of my chop much easier than with the Talon. Now, is this because the DG somehow suits my bad chopping style, or that it is more forgiving, or just easier to chop with? I'm not sure.

One thing I have not done much observation in comparing these two rubbers is the ability to serve with them. With a slightly grippier LP, you can get a very fast BH corner to BH corner serve that comes down in the last few inches of the table. I was always amazed at DWruck's ability to hit that serve with the Pogo. With a less grippy LP, the ball sails a little more due to lack of topspin, so you have to slow down the speed. Ah, I'll test those out another day...

Anyway, I'd be very interested to hear form others of you who have used both the Talon and the DG, and how they compare for YOU on shot-making. Nathanso, I don't know why we have a divergence of opinion on our opinions of the DG, but maybe its because I never clean my pips!

One thing more...my primary hitting partner continues to insist that the Talon was definitely "funkier" than the DG. He can return almost all of my DG shots, whereas he would often whiff or misread shots I played with the Talon. I'll see at the tournament this weekend how successful I am with the DG.

I guess it all will finally come down to HOW I want to set up my offense. Do I want to set up my offense with the better chop-blocking ability, the quicker punch shots, and the wider variety of shots I am able to execute with the DG, or do I want to set up my offense with the tentative shots that my opponents hit because they can't quite figure out the Talon's funkiness?

Time will tell...

_________________
USATT rating - 1999

Blade - Rendler Smart FH - Hurricane 8 hard black BH - Grass DTechs OX red
Blade - BBC 9/10/9 FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Dragon Talon OX red
Blade - Hallmark Aurora FH - Hurricane 8 black BH - Joola Badman OX red

Go back to Pogo Jim! (just kidding).

Nice observations.

The only thing I worry about with testing rubbers out against the robot is it doesn't replicate terribly well what comes at you in a live match, and you don't replicate very well what you DO in a live match. No doubting that practice against a robot is better than nothing, and even sometimes better than against a real person for wanting to practice the same thing over and over to iron out kinks. But hitting against a robot we tend to hit more like we would hit in a practice match or practice hit, than in a real match. That is, there's nothing on the line so we blaze away and often hit shots better than we do when we are more hesitant in a match. Not to say there is anything wrong with that, there's not, it is in fact required if we are ever to bring those things into real matches. I just think it skews somehow the way we feel about a rubber in some way. What I am saying is I don't think there can be any final conclusions until you compare them against a real person (or perhaps several real people in fact).

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.