OOAK Table Tennis Forum

At what point in a rally do you twiddle, is it random, do you do it when you think you know what is coming back on the ball, physically
when do you do it, after the oppo hits the ball, before he hits it or sometime after you have hit the ball?

Lots of questions i know, but i am a virgin and still working on this and i have been caught in no-mans land a few times when i try to do it in a rally, as so far i have only mastered it with the serve!

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Think, before you drink, before you write!

Classic defenders who twiddle will do it after a chop with the inverted in order to chop the next incoming loop with their pips; quite often this will happen in a series of forehand-to-forehand or backhand-to-backhand looping/chopping. As a rule, twiddling is done immediately after your own stroke, because the eye of the opponent will be on the ball and not on your bat so there is a chance he'll miss it, and it gives you the most time to do it and adjust to it. Actually, few opponents are fooled by it, but chopping with the pips tends to get you a safe defence, especially in women's play. If course this implies that you anticipate a situation the twiddling will be effective in, so you will have to have a rough idea of what kind of ball will come your way. This again implies that your placement must be such that your opponent has very limited options for his return.
Modern defenders tend to twiddle less or not at all, because it is mostly their footwork which brings the most effective side of their bat to bear; at that, modern defence is complicated already and twiddling tends to complicate things further - it is often better not to make things too difficult. In modern defense, therefore, twiddling is done not systematically, but sort of opportunistic: only when the occasion seems to invite it. For instance, to kill a ball which is served long (twiddle to backhand inverted), or to hit instead of loop a ball which is chopped (twiddle to forehand long pips), or to fast-loop a relatively slow ball to your backhand when you are at mid-distance (twiddle to backhand inverted). In any case, you will have to spot the opportunity first and then react adequately, so the situation must allow you some time for your response; generally this will mean that either you or your opponent is relatively far away from the table. Twiddling will of course be done now after the opponent has returned the ball and the opportunity has been spotted, so generally you will not have a lot of time to do it in and it only makes sense to try and do it all if you're very good at it.

The above mainly refers to mid- to top-level play. At lower levels, twiddling can be done just to disrupt, anytime when you see the opportunity for it or simply when you decide to do it and are ready to adapt your next stroke to it. Still, you must have some idea of what kind of ball to expect, or you may get yourself into a trouble with it. Disruption is disturbing a pattern, so the pattern must be there before you try and disrupt it! Twiddling will occur, then, as a variation. For instance, when you have received a serve 2 or 3 times with your pips, twiddle (under the table) to return with inverted the next time. Or when you have pushed 2 or more times with inverted, do it the 3rd time with the pips; and twiddle back immediately after that stroke, or you may disrupt your own game instead...

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Without opponent, no match.

It depends on your opponent's style and strategy. Against all-out attackers you will not have much opportunity to twiddle. When I play against this type of opponents, I usually twiddle after I executed a really good block or deep push and expect a hurried, low-quality return so I can attack with force. If my opponent's level is really high, then I will not be expecting much opportunity to do so.
Against tactical opponents who like to push and then carefully choose a ball to attack, I would twiddle almost constantly, rarely hitting more than twice with the same surface consecutively. This kind of opponent usually likes to push patiently to my long pips side, so he can attack the return that carries little or weakly reversed spin. By twiddling I could add lots of spin to my pushes, and also attack strongly if I am in good position.
Some players have asked me what happens when I am "caught" with the wrong rubber... The answer is I have also developed an attacking stroke (plus an aggressive push) with my long pips to be used in such instances, for both fh and bh, so I don't have to give up my goal to control the point. As to why don't I simply attack with my long pips on the bh so I don't have to twiddle to attack with my SP, the answer is no matter how much we can rationalize that when hit well, LPs attacks can be as effective as MP, SP or inverted attacks, the truth is with the 40mm ball, aggressive attacks with LPs are still too slow and easily counter-looped by high-level loopers once they adjust their timing. There's simply not enough "momentum" with LP attacks to bother quality players when used as the main weapon.

Great posts Kees and roundrobin!

I thought I might just add that the simplest way to start twiddling is to use for your serves (twiddle straight after your serve) or for simple set-plays. These would take the least amount of training and can still be quite effective.

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Now Haggisv I know you read Kees and RR's posts, but di you actually read RB's? He did actually say he has mastered twiddling off the serve.

RB, that no-man's-land feeling is not a good one. I really only ever twiddle off serve because I find I cannot adjust quickly enough to the change in power (and throw angle) on BH, and total change in throw angle on FH. I suppose if I practiced it enough I could get used to it. I have tried it in practice with mixed results. While I agree with RR that LP lacks power on the BH for most attacks in a "put-away" sense, I find that attacking with LP can sometimes get through an opponent, and at other times force enough pressure on them to give you a FH attack opportunity. And a high ball at the net is still prime slamming material with LP. I've never had one of them returned.

I do agree though, that if you want to twiddle, it needs to be straight after you hit your shot and have anticipated that the advantage will be there with the opposing rubber when the return comes back. And if you mis-anticipate, hope for the best!

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I play close to the table and generally only twiddle immediately after I serve. You rarely have time especially if the opponent is also a close to the table player.

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After I chop with backhand I'll watch and if it looks like they're going to push it, which they usually do, I'll twiddle and loop it with my backhand inverted.

That said, work on hitting forehand w your pips. If you can hit fh with your pips you'll get a lot of points.

It takes a lot of time, b/c you have to learn twice as many strokes as inverted players however you'll do better in the long run.

A guy in my club is 2050 and he twiddles often, hitting with his forehand pips. Most guys under 2100 struggle with this.

The KEY is to watch what your opponent is going to do. Whenever I see a push coming to my BH, I'll loop it with the inverted to throw them off. However, anticipating your opponent is generally an advanced skill and takes a lot of experience.

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Victoria Pavlovitch is very good at chopping all the balls either to her forehand or to her backhand with her Feint Long III. Its only wen she comes in to block, push or attack when she uses her TENERGY 64.

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i twiddle VERY often
mainly in order to attack with the BH..
ppl believe that defenders dont attack with BH so they tend to "lean back" when they bring a ball to your BH cuz they believe you will chop with the LPs which will give them time to settle the next attack

personally, i twiddle when i know (or think that i know) that the next attack of my opponent will be to my BH
i start the rally with 2-3 chops with pips, and right after the 3rd chop i twiddle while running to close-to-table position and ready for offensive block.
another scenario is when the opponent playing no-spin balls to my BH (while waiting for my weak return so he can smash to cross-point or something), in that case i twiddle just to make a slow spinny BH topspin in order to bring spin in-play so my pips can make their effect =]
this is mostly why i twiddle.. and that methods work perfectly against players about my level
i never twiddle in order to chop with pips on FH... but this is my weakness cuz if i thought i would get a "twiddle-worth" ball to my BH - i twiddle and then the opponent surprise me with a ball to my FH its 90% lost point for me

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I do it all the time after backhand inverted serves. Also on serve receive, I will often set up with inverted on my backhand (out of view under the table) to deal with fast no-spin to the pips side and twiddle if I see an underspin serve coming. I rarely twiddle during a rally unless the opponent is really passive.

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Thanks for all replies guys, lots of great advice for me to take onboard and learn to use accordingly, the biggest lesson to understand being that as i play close to the table, to only use against off the table types, must now practice in training.

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Think, before you drink, before you write!

Hi everyone, I am a chopper, and I often twiddle if my opponent doesnt attack immediatly, but waiting for the opportunity to do that... then I twiddle continously to confuse him. My fore is spinny inverted and my bh is dead lp.
If my opponent is very good at strong topspin on my lp pushes, I twiddle the inverted to my bh to force him play slower topspin.

These were usual tactics, but if my opponenet pushes a lot, and one of them is come to my fh, I twiddle to lp, and push it strongly to his fh. This fast push is difficult to attack so he may makes error, or his push flies high, so I can kill it.


I rarely twiddle lp to my forehand att chopping, I much more prefer the menatality of for example Joo, who doesnt want to confuse himself with different type of motions, I think its better to learn chop, fish, counterloop safely with the inverted.

Greetings from Hungary

Bence

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