OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Watching the pro choppers like Gionis, Filus, Te, etc. seems to reveal something counter to my understanding of LP behavior. In a rally after a few loop/chop exchanges, and then their opponent pushes the ball, they often come to the table and push that ball back with the LP. One would expect that ball would have topspin back to the opponent, which at that level could easily be killed, but often that ball seems to be again looped as if it has underspin. So my question is, are these pros able to counter push that ball with LP to produce enough underpin to force another loop, or do they place it well enough that a kill is too risky even with topspin, or is the spin weird enough from the LP that more spin is needed to overpower the weirdness?

The counter push looks so simple, and LP behavior suggests it should be topspin, but it sure doesn't look that was to these club player eyes.

Most off the table choppers have sponge, allowing less spin "reversal" (continuation). I suspect that they are getting anything from light underspin or topspin or a dead ball, but that there is variation preventing the attacker from knowing how much spin is on the ball and thus not allowing a huge attack.

I had this same question a while back.



In this video at 0:37, you can see very clearly that when Shiono is pushing the backspin ball back, he's putting backspin on the ball. The "trick" to this stroke is that when cutting under the ball, you have to swing FAST. At 0:48, it shows Shiono pushing at full speed; loook at just how hard he's cutting through the ball! I found it's better to think about this stroke less as a "LP push" and more as a "LP chop against backspin."

The ball will never have as much backspin as a normal inverted heavy push, but the grippier your pips are and the thicker your sponge is, the more backspin you can generate on a heavy push. You CAN do this stroke with any long pip, though. I do it with Gambler GXL in 0.6mm sponge, Roland Krmaschek does it with 755 OX, and Sun Jian Fei does it with whatever pips he uses in OX (though he's usually playing aggressive strokes with his LP). Practically every male LP chopper out of Japan uses 0.6mm sponge and they all cut under the ball too. With thin/no sponge and medium/low grip pips, your LP "heavy" chop against backspin will just have less backspin (or no spin) and your racket angle's margins of error are smaller.

Getting good at this stroke was one of the best things I did for my game, as at lower levels of play I spend a lot more time pushing than chopping. Most people push after 1-2 chops anyhow, so you REALLY need to get good at pushing!

Hope this helps!

Thanks, hopsquatch, for the video and the information. I have noticed that Gionis in particular really snaps his wrist at the last second as he cuts through the ball if it is a push he is countering. That close-up video of the ball from Shiono is great at showing what happens to the ball on that stroke.

I'll definitely work on developing that stroke more.

No problem! I'd like to add one last thing, though; not everyone snaps with the wrist! Joo has stated in videos that he actually does NOT use his wrist on pushes, as it loses control (even if you gain more spin). Others use the wrist to varying degrees. Gionis uses it (as you mentioned), and Han Ying really snaps through with a ton of wrist action (although she's an SP chopper). Just know that there's differences in everyone's technique, and you should do what works best for you!

It works itself out in levels. At lower levels, you can push the ball and they'll net even fairly minimal backspin.

Slightly higher up, they'll read the backspin and at least return it on the table. This is where most average club/tournament players will end up. Here, the ball height is usually more important than spin or lack of spin.

Higher up, you need to worry about being skillful with the spin.

Overall, you should be watching players in the lower-mid+ range (1500-1900 USATT) and see how they actually play. Trying to imitate pros does not usually end well...!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFlkehQx3K8&t=26s

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

I am always amazed at the racket speed on chops the pros have, wrist or no wrist. To swing that fast and have the ball come out so slowly to me is more impressive than fast loops.

I like to watch the pros to appreciate and understand what they do, not necessary copy them. I have way too many bad habits ingrained at this stage to mimic much of what they do, but I can always learn something new. A guy can dream.

Hey, thanks for this vid. This channel is really good, just need to search long pimples (if you're on pc/laptop), or scan through to find the long pips/anti. There's a few I've seen already that are a great watch! It's very difficult to find 1600-2400 long pip users regularly on youtube but when you do save them coz they're great for analysing and learning!

_________________
my youtube
http://www.youtube.com/ndragon88

My Vlog / Blog
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32572

Yeah, some good videos there of the amateur players! A few others put some defensive videos up now and again.

To me, it's not only that the pro defenders have such clean, perfect technique... the quality of incoming ball is so much higher too! So they're forced to do those strokes due to the difficulty of balls flying at them, and what will happen if they return those shots too passively. Meaning, you rarely if ever, get to see shots which are applicable to amateurs. I find people who watch pros exclusively are 100% compulsive 'over-players.' In their own heads they are battling the likes of Ma Long or FZD and must CRUSH every ball. And I have to keep saying, "You're not playing Waldner... you're playing Joe the accountant! You don't need to destroy every ball!!"

Basically, find a realistic standard for what you can actually achieve... and just see how they play. Hint: It's A LOT different than the pros!

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

Yh sounds like me before wanting to chop and play like Chen Weixing and Gionis
Until you watch yourself back on video

_________________
my youtube
http://www.youtube.com/ndragon88

My Vlog / Blog
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32572