OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Celluloid is allowed everywhere in finished form. However, the process of making materials in celluloid is not allowed anywhere except for a few countries (China, Korea, India, etc.) with some quota limitations in Japan. The process of generating celluloid based sheets is a health hazard (same as Asbestos) due to the minute fibers getting embedded in the lungs. So although the finished product is used world-wide and is relatively safe, only a few factories are still in operation, mainly in China. As you may know, in India the handling of Asbestos is allowed even if the Asbestos workers have the highest rate of lung cancer and many die in their early 30s, whereas in most western countries it is forbidden. It is the same with celluloid. Except that since China joined the WTO the Chinese government is trying to follow international norms as far as working conditions in factories are concerned. All celluloid producing factories (those that make the sheets) have been given timelines to cut production gradually until it is eliminated all together. Instead they have to produce a similar product using plastics or composite materials excluding the fiberous materials such as celluloid. The handling of the finished celluloid sheets is not a health hazard it is the production of such sheets (or other shapes) that will be eliminated.

As for taking ping pong balls on airplanes, good luck.

In any case, this is all irrelevant, the use of plastics for producing ping pong balls is in the ITTF rules for over 60 years. In fact Dunlop used to produce plastic balls. But their method was using the 2 half-spheres, which is not the new method. The new balls will be one continuous piece, one sphere, no seems, and will look and feel exactly like the current balls. This does not even need a rule change. The only change will be the directives to manufacturers.

I hope that this clarifies the matter.

_________________
Adham Sharara

Luckily we will not need to drink from the new balls. We will focus on playing with them.

As I explained, there is no ban on using celluloid, there are health restrictions at the production level of the celluloid sheets. All western countries have banned celluloid many years ago and do not produce it, same as Asbestos and many other fiberous products. Some countries, for economical reasons have continued to produce celluloid. The finished product is fine. But the production is a problem. China is the main producer of celluloid sheets used to make ping pong balls. The Chinese government has started limiting such production gradually until it is stopped or changed to another material. As you may know the film industry is also very concerned and they are slowly changing to digital.

At the moment, to my knowledge, the only existing celluloid sheet factories (for ping pong balls) are found in China, Korea, India, in some ex-Soviet states, and in japan with quota restrictions.

As production is reduced we will have a ping-pong ball shortage and the prices will sky-rocket. So the wise thing to do is to have an alternative and take advantage of this opportunity to develop a better type of ball (better consistency, roundness, hardness, etc.). Also, with the new technology many other countries will be able to make ping-pong balls (there is already interest in USA, Germany and of course Japan), so the market will become more competitive.

Just avoid using the ball for drinking and all will be OK.

_________________
Adham Sharara

The introduction of the 40mm ball over the 38 mm ball has already negatively affected defenders and impacted on the viability of other playing styles, I can't see how you can possibly argue that a bigger ball won't affect players?

The claim that a bigger ball will benefit defenders I would describe as laughable, except that I don't find it at all funny; the 40mm ball sits up says smack me and allows the attackers to worry less about the defenders spin; it just dumbs the game dow

So what is the real reason for backdooring a ball size increase, it certainly isn't for the benefit of defenders? Is it for particiaption? Do you feel that a game that requires skill to master is going to lead to too high a level of drop outs fromthe I want success now generation, are you going to try and argue that the bigger ball offset by the new material or stick with the helping defenders line (on which point I can say I don't know anyone with an ounce of sense actually believes)?

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Another one bites the dust.

Thank you ,Adham, I greatly appreciate your answer.

Unfortunately, I did not find any links nor the source of your information about celluloid ban there. It does not surprise me, actually, because nobody else was able to confirm your information about celluloid ban anywhere either.

What we know for sure is, that not every country produces celluloid, which is quite understandable and is not any different from the fact, that not every country produces cars, planes, tooth paste, table tennis rubber, table tennis blades etc.

On the other hand, there are several countries producing enough celluloid for decades and there is no reliable information about them intending to stop this production. All the alleged health issues are apparently regulated by the laws and the government agencies in those countries. I really think, you should check your source.

As long as there is a demand for celluloid, the manufacturers in those countries will keep producing it, because they sell it and make their living this way, this is the way, how economy works. Hence, there is no reason for us to refrain from using celluloid balls.

OK, you know best. I suggest you invest all your money in the celluloid producing manufacturers, you will be a millionaire. In the meantime, we will start producing the new balls after the Olympic Games. By the way, the two main factories that produce celluloid ball will no longer have access to the celluloid sheets within 3 years.

_________________
Adham Sharara

Where and how much is the size increase exactly? And who decided about a size increase?

_________________
Adham Sharara

The problem as I see it is that your comments and explanations have been all over the place and quite inconsistent.

Celluloid is made from cellulose. Cellulose makes up about 30% of all plant matter. Cellulose is a major component of wood, sawdust and so forth. We must be constantly surrounded by cellulose particles and fibers - inhaling them all the time. They are making cellulose insulation today, and the main concern seems to be fire hazard, not lung issues. The health hazard information (and the claimed impending ban) did not make sense to me. So did some research. Part of the research was to ask a Japanese celluloid manufacturer about the health hazard in the making of celluloid. I specifically referenced your claim of the hazard being like that of asbestos. This is our email exchange.

Dear Jay,

Thank you for your continuous information.
These health hazards are just imagined. Celluloid is not same as asbestos.

Best regards,


****************************************************
Yuichiro Yoshikura

Investor Relations & Corporate Communications
DAICEL CHEMICAL INDUSTRIES, LTD.
2-18-1, Konan, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108-8230 Japan
TEL:+81-3-6711-8121 FAX:+81-3-6711-8100
****************************************************



送信元: [email protected]
宛先: [email protected]
日付: 2011/08/25 16:07
件名: Re: Celluloid ban?



Dear Yuichiro,

I ran across this today as well. This is a response from ITTF
President Adham Sharara to an inquiry made to him by a U.S. table
tennis coach.

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/490

No more celluloid balls?

There have been rumors flying about regarding the apparent ban on
celluloid ping-pong balls. I emailed ITTF President Adham Sharara, and
here's his response:

................................................

"There are no new rules, but there will be new balls after the Olympic
Games [2012] which will be made from composite material. The celluloid
ban is not from the ITTF but from governments. It is currently already
banned in most countries, not the use of the finished material, but
the production of the celluloid sheets. It is for health reasons. Same
as asbestos, there was no problem as long as Korea and China were
accepting to have celluloid production factories. But now both
governments and others want to stop the production and handling of
celluloid due to the negative effects it has on lungs (lung cancer,
fibrosis, etc.).

So the ITTF will adapt a new type of ball made of composite materials
other than celluloid. We take this opportunity to make it seamless,
even hardness, and non-flammable. The rules remain the same, but the
Technical leaflet (document given to manufacturers) will change."

Adham

............................................

Are these health hazards imagined or real?

Thanks,

Jay

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

Why be snide? Why not simply provide the source of your information?

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

It is only irrelevant regarding the issue of introducing a new ball. Many players such as myself view the new ball with mixed interest and emotions. And I suspect that the majority of players will happily embrace the new ball so long as it is reasonably priced and plays very closely the same as the celluloid balls that we are all used to playing with. And the elimination of the seam in the ball seems like it could be a very good thing to me. Introducing and trying a new ball is one thing. After all, it has been done in the past. But speaking of a ban on celluloid balls in advance of the new ball being fully vetted is quite another thing.

There are two major things that confuse me on the new ball and ITTF announcements.

1) Why speak of a ban in advance of the new ball having proved itself to be as good as or superior to the celluloid ball? This is an especially good question since there is no worldwide ban.

2) Why would the ITTF want to take an active role in promoting and encouraging the development of a new ball? If celluloid was really in danger of being banned, wouldn't ball manufacturers be very concerned? Wouldn't they be at the forefront of trying to create a replacement themselves? Wouldn't this extend not only to ball manufactures, but to pretty much any table tennis manufacturer since the balls are a key component of the game? It would seem to me that DHS and other makers would pursue such development without the need of any encouragement whatsoever. If celluloid was really going to become scarce, they would be highly motivated to find a solution. A real ban would strike at the core of their business. It is hard to imagine them sitting idly by and allowing disaster to strike. As you say, the rules that allow such development have existed for many decades. There should be no need for ITTF involvement other than to provide an avenue of approval. All the ITTF should need to do is test and approve. We shouldn't be hearing announcements from the ITTF, we should be seeing advertisements from DHS for their new, advanced and ITTF approved seamless ball.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

I'm worried that the performance difference of the new ball will be different enough from the existing ball that my entire stock of hundreds of practice balls will become useless. Replacing them will be very expensive!



 

_________________
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From what I've known so far you do not need to worry anymore.

They WILL be different. The new balls will change the game, again.

Get ready for another equipment revolution, thanks to ITTF...

I think the issue of the performance difference is a major concern. So too is the issue of the price for the new ball. Especially since only two manufacturers will be making the new ball. It is unclear whether the patent that we've seen for the new ball manufacturing method will be licensed to makers other than DHS and Double Fish. If there are only two makers, concern over price manipulation is very real.

On the potential plus side, the manufacturing process seems more highly automated which implies lower labor costs which might mean a cheaper ball. Also, the seamless design might very well result in not only a better an more uniform ball, but possibly even a more durable one since the seam is where we see many celluloid balls crack.

I suspect that practice balls will wear out and need to be replaced before long before the new seamless ball has any effect. Also consider this possibility. Maybe the new seamless ball becomes the favored playing and tournament ball but the celluloid ball remains favored for training and robots.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

This is interesting... I simply accepted Adham's statement that celluloid is almost as dangerous as asbestos. Now I will do some research of my own.

Thanks Jay for your work, as usual.

He meant the production of celluloid, by the way.

What about his statement about "Also, celluloid is ... not allowed on airplanes,"?

As far as I know, a lot of people travel by plane with their TT equipment, including balls, and nobody reported having any problems in airports because of TT balls.

So far in my research I could not find a single comparison of celluloid to asbestos, during or after production. ZERO. The only thing I can find is volatile solvents are used to extract celluloid, but I can't imagine it being anymore dangerous than producing gasoline, alcohol or everyday bicycle glue. Are these three products being banned as well? Not to mention plastics manufacturing is one of the most eco-unfriendly process in the world. So it looks like we are simply trading one evil with another with this new ball to me... ITTF's excuse is hyperbole and simply irresponsible. If they just said they can make a better ball with plastic then no one will have a problem with it.

I have always transported ping-pong balls in my carry-ons whenever I fly. Not once I was stopped from doing so.