OOAK Table Tennis Forum

don't want to be too polite and cautious when speaking with forum mates.


moreover my irritation was actually for xiom..... which reflected in the post... not you.


i happen to be a materials and metals engineer by academics... which infuriates me further when i come through the marketing gimmicks ... making it over-simplistically pseudo-logical to gullible consumer...carbon !! we came out with the 2009 century miracle when added to sponge make it black and the rubber great. see ... our scientific discovery. [which we discovered but couldn't produce in our factory... asked esn to manufacture.... and instead of holding on to our new secret asked esn to send different colored, same textured, same jelly like wobbly, same 2 hardness grades, sponge to all our competitors ...

thats how products are positioned based on customer segment, and in spite of being part of the 'gang' by profession, i can hate it as a person....

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Blade: 729 F1 || FH: Joola Rhyzm max || BH: Tenergy 05 Max updated: 1/2014

Fair enough.

Dishonesty in advertising?! Surely not! What next, dishonesty in politics?!

I'm sure from where you sit the situation is quite transparent and equally as frustrating, having an inside perspective, etc. I share such frustrations in my own academic field when encountering those without a formal education in my area of study. (If I have to hear one more person say, "Humans only use 10% of their brains," I'll choke them.) But it might be preemptive to call people gullible simply because they believe a product has carbon in it when the product is black and has carbon in the name. To anyone without inside knowledge into chemistry or product engineering or table tennis rubber, I would say it would be illogical to assume the product doesn't have carbon in it, under such circumstances.

However, I am grateful for the insight into how all these products "come about". So, according to what you said, basically ESN makes a product, changes it slightly (via color, etc) in order to have "different" versions of the same thing to sell to various companies, who then stamp their name on it and then resell it? If so, this would seem to imply that Vega and Tenergy are identical. If so, this would also imply that anyone who gives a review of the two rubbers and claims that there is any difference between them is either delusional or lying. Is that the case, or am I missing something?

I am not sure that all of these Tenergy clones are identical, though (I actually know for certain now that they are not). Individual companies still have some room to use creativity in terms of the stuff they contract with ESN to produce.

My guess is that at this point, a very large number of different top sheet formulations and designs can be attached to a relatively smaller number of these new spring sponges, resulting in a very large number of possible rubbers that can be marketed (and hyped). Based on the differences between Tenergy 05, 25, and 64, the shape of the pips can produce quite significant changes in play. This can be determined I am sure now by a programmable injection molding machine and new variations can be very easily produced by the factory. The composition of the top sheet can produce big differences in grippiness and durability by slight variations in ratios of polymer mixtures and cross linkers. And, based on the soon to be available Tenergy FX series, obviously they can change the density of this new sponge. The possible permutations in just these three things can generate a huge number of different rubbers and can keep us all chasing our tails for a long time. Sadly, they realize that the EJ virus keeps them in business (since for really good players, they GIVE them the rubber for free, it is people like us who keep them going).

The marketing hype is intentional. The use of "carbon" and "nano technologies" that they claim has always been silly, the pseudoscience of it all is reminiscent of cosmetics. I always thought that Stiga was the most egregious in their use of meaningless mumbo-jumbo but Xiom is right up there. Also, manufactuerers make it a point to not tell you enough to actually be able to predict how a given rubber/blade plays, that way you will have to buy a sheet, or several different kinds of rubbers, to know for sure. Joola in particular always claims that each rubber is the best and will make you play great without telling you anything about what to really expect from the playing properties of a rubber.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

love you for saying that... !!! you are funny.



No no no no no no.... pl delete this implication before someone sees this and crucifies me. !!

Tenergy's prorous sponge is from a japanese factory.. different from the porous sponges sold by donic, andro, tibhar and xiom (with or without tensor logo) made by ESN Elastomers GmBH.... and are generally referred as tensors.

the earlier tensors offerred at most 3 variations of sponge 38 42.5 47.5 but not much variation in topsheet. modern tensors are offering a new generation porous sponge with more hardness variations but more importantly more variation in topsheet material (not just pip structure or specs); allowing more natural rubbers like eastern rubbers.

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Blade: 729 F1 || FH: Joola Rhyzm max || BH: Tenergy 05 Max updated: 1/2014

I see... Thanks for the clarification. So, would it be accurate to infer that, for example, the sponges of Xiom Vega and Andro Hexer are identical--but have slightly varying topsheets, which give each rubber idiosyncratic properties? If so, would it be accurate to say that any tensor with a spring sponge from Donic, Andro, Xiom, and Tibhar will likely be more similar to each other than to Tenergy?

I'd still like a real review of Vega Asia and Vega Euro =]

cheers

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Nexy Zealot ST
FH: Tibhar Evolution MX-S)
BH: Some sp?

That's consistent with my experience.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

yep... and your experience is consistent with my hypothesis.

in fact i feel vega pro will be very very very like hexer topsheet and sponge ... may be slightly diff sponge hardness.

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Blade: 729 F1 || FH: Joola Rhyzm max || BH: Tenergy 05 Max updated: 1/2014

Debraj

Bear in mind, though, that the three Tenergy's play quite differently, and all they are doing is changing pip structure. I never realized how important that was until I checked out the three versions. I thought all the Tenergy clones would be the same too, but I have found that Barracuda and Hexer also play somewhat differently, Hexer having a harder and faster feel. I am guessing this too is because of differences in topsheet.

But it is also true that all of these Tenergy clones are different from and superior to conventional Tensors like Platin, JO Gold, Express, etc.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

clarification to my last post. Tenergy 64 and 05 are not all that different but 25 is.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

Don't expect this from Wookie, they aren't his cup of tea.

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Custom Re-Impact OFF
Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

aww hopefully another helpful member can satisfy my curiosity, oh well happy new years!

cheers

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Nexy Zealot ST
FH: Tibhar Evolution MX-S)
BH: Some sp?

I'll try to at least whet your appetite since I play with Xiom Vega Asia. Hopefully someone else will come along and give it a proper review.

I currently use Asia as my backhand rubber, but I've used it on my forehand too. I cannot compare it to Pro because I haven't yet used Pro. I know Asia has the same sponge as Pro, but it has a different topsheet. It is (allegedly) faster than Pro, but less spinny--based on what I've gathered. The topsheet of Pro is 100% natural rubber with shorter pips, so it is spinnier but slower. The topsheet of Asia is a blend of synthetic and natural rubber, with longer pips. It is faster with a little less spin. Nonetheless, in spite of Asia's different topsheet, it has more grip than any tensor I've ever played with. (In candor, it should be noted that I have not tried Tenergy.) Still, I'm very excited to check out Pro if it's considered to be even more capable of generating spin.

Regarding forehand performance, I can only compare Asia to Chinese rubbers, as those are what I've primarily used on my forehand for the last eight months. The closest thing I can think of to compare Vega Asia to is factory tuned Haifu Whale II. However, Vega Asia feels much lighter than Whale II. Also, Vega Asia is a tiny bit faster, a larger "bit" softer, and quite a bit more forgiving, but also a bit less spinny. Also, Vega Asia's throw seems to be lower than Haifu Whale II. In fact, the Asia throw angle is significantly lower than both Neo H3 and Whale II, for those who have used such rubbers. In my experience, smashing and driving with Vega Asia is a dream, but high, spinny loops require a slightly more concentrated effort (but only slightly).

The short game is nice with Vega Asia (compared to other tensors I've used) in that the sponge is hard enough to not be too springy and the topsheet has enough grip to generate very nice spin. Overall, I think Vega Asia is an excellent backhand rubber for me. It makes a great forehand rubber too, but I'm still kind of ambivalent in that regard because I prefer some of the attributes of certain Chinese rubbers. As far as tensors go, Vega Asia is the best I've ever played with. Whether it's as good or better than Tenergy, I can't say. But I can say that it's much less expensive.

badaboom how did I miss this thread?

Some very deep conversations going on over my head it seems.

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