OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Use the topsheet from the pre-made or a cut-out from a new inverted rubber that was recently cut. That will save you a lot of blisters on your thumb. Still takes time, but it makes it a pile easier.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Today was, in a word, awesome!
I learned a great deal and got to try some different rubbers. Not too many as I would have liked, unfortunately, since I spent most of the time doing drills, but enough to switch from my 837
It began with us sitting down and Lars Borg of Japsko explaining the basics of pips. Both he and Hans are very enthusiastic about SpinLord's rubber Dornenglanz, and I'm starting to see why. Apparently SpinLord was the first manufacturer to put tack on LPs - the Dornenglanz is quite tacky - and KTL are the only ones who've caught on with the Stranger. I'm a little confused, since they seemed praise these tacky LPs for resembling FLPs. That just doesn't make much sense to me, but then I've never played with frictionless. Moreover they explained that in general you add more sponge to your LPs the further away from the table you play, unless you're an attacker, in which case you also put sponge on.
It was interesting to note the different opinions of Lars and Hans. They both strictly adhere to the paradigm that each player should develop a style that suits their strengths, rather than trying to force a particular style onto them. However, while Hans feels that everyone should start with inverted to develop the basic strokes, Lars thought that completely unnecessary. I'm not sure which one I agree with.
Another interesting opinion to note was that Hans categorically said that the tacky Chinese rubbers are better than Japanese or German ones using mechanical spin. He can't really understand why the rest of the world doesn't get this when the Chinese have known it for 40 years.
And so we started playing. The course was a very introductory one, starting with the basic backhand and forehand drive strokes and forehand loop before we even got to LP strokes. Then we practiced some basic at the table strokes against no spin, topspin and backspin (this one was a pretty devious attack stroke) and chopping from far off. That was about all we had time for, since each drill took its time to explain and then practice. There were ten of us, and they went around correcting us and giving us tips all the time. One thing that Hans emphasized was the switch between backhand and forehand. According to him that's the single most important aspect of one's technique, so we practiced that a little as well.


As for material, the first thing I wanted to try was another forehand rubber. I was getting quite tired of the KTL Red Diamond and its super thick sponge, giving me far too much speed. He stuck an All+ blade with Gewo Return Chop 1.7 mm in my hands, and let me tell you, it was pure bliss. All of a sudden the ball went where I wanted it to, and I could consistently land forehand chops on the table. Every forehand stroke I have went up in quality with that rubber. There was also a bat with Tenergy 05 on it that I had to try, mostly out of curiosity, but naturally it felt horrible. I mean, if the Red Diamond is too fast, what could I expect from Tenergy?
Out of the massive list of LPs I only tried the Dornenglanz and Pogo, both in ox. I loved the Dornenglanz, but really disliked Pogo. I might have liked it better with sponge, though, but I got hooked.
I ended up buying only two sheets, the Dornenglanz and an LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm, since Lars recommended that as a cheaper alternative to the Return Chop. They helped me assemble the bat right away so I could test it, and I'm super satisfied. The All+ gives the LPs enough speed to work well at chopping distance, should I choose to do that, but I most of all have so much more control by the table. With the 837 I was sort of stuck in a kind of limbo, not being good enough at chopping and not being effective enough close to the table. Hopefully this switch well be beneficial as heck.

So what did I learn from all this? Well, what I'll focus on in the immediate future is the form of my basic strokes, keeping my elbow in front of my body (I have sort of a lazy forehand) and make sure I look high enough. As far as LPs goes, the most novel stroke to me was the attack on backspin. It's a sort of relaxed whipping motion with a slightly open bat angle, and it can get quite tricky. They described it as "letting the pips do the work".
All in all, it was a phenomenal course and hopefully I'll be a much better TT player thanks to what I learned. (and bought )

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

I almost forgot, there was an opportunity to try SpinLord's new, yet unreleased rubber Blitzschlag. There was a lot of anger expressed at the ITTF for having postponed the approving of that rubber. I figured you guys might be interested to hear a bit about it.
Unfortunately I can't tell you too much, though, since I didn't try it out for myself. However, a club-mate of mine did try it out, and I can at least convey his impression:
Well the Blitzschlag is intended as a continuation of the Dornenglanz, and apparently it felt quite similar. What he could note was that he had a bit more control with the Blitzschlag. Other than that they didn't differ too much from what he could see. Still, that leaves a lot in the air as far as reversal and such things go.
I should also tell you that this kid plays a close to the table blocking game with his pips, on a quite slow blade. I think it's LKT Toxic 3. Might be number 5, I'm not sure, but it's nothing blazing fast.

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

A couple of really informative posts. I've heard of Thalin comparing Dornenglanz to frictionless before. No idea what he could be talking about other than maybe they both block well.

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My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

Apparently it's not just Thalin. Lars Borg seems to agree with him. I'll ask for a clarification on Tuesday.
The way they described the conception of tacky LPs is that they use the tack to slow down the rubber. I don't really understand what that has to do with being frictionless, though.
One this is certain, though. Mark Koehler designs the rubbers (at least Dornenglanz) at the edge of what's allowed. Or well, it seems that way. Lars explained that the further away pips are from each other and the thinner they are, i.e. the more air is in the stroke where rubber would be with an inverted rubber, the more spin reversal, or less spin. That makes perfect sense, to me. As for the tackiness.. I just can't understand how it would affect grip in any way other than increasing it. Maybe I'm missing some part of the equation. As I said, I'll check again with Thalin this Tuesday, and see if I can grasp it better.

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

Also, I really really want to stress again how it dawned on me that proper form is important, especially when trying to master switching between backhand and forehand, which is one of the most important aspects of table tennis. When I was younger I was quite well schooled, so I really just have to work out the kinks that I missed back then, or stuff that have grown sour.
Three things pointed out by Thalin struck me as incredibly important:

- Keep your elbow in front of you, with the bat pointing straight ahead. Always return to this stance, no matter which stroke, and always start from this stance. This is probably, in my opinion, the most important detail if you want to get good at switching between backhand and forehand. I noticed this form also makes it easier to take the ball directly off the bounce. It also moved me half a step away from the table, which while not much can be a significant half step.
- Keep your torso fixed. For most strokes, the arm should do the work. The torso should be as fixed as possible. This facilitates returning to the basic stance after each stroke.
- Keep your head high. As in, look up. Try not to look at your own half of the table at all. Practice this by doing multiball and only looking at the opponent's bat, as he spreads shots all over the table. Naturally you'll have to see the ball when you hit it, but the point is to fix your eyes on the opponent's half of the table, which helps you see earlier where he's going to place the ball. This is especially important for defenders.

Thalin told us of a group of kids he trained, that were among the best in Sweden their age. He had them doing multiball to see specifically how good they were at switching between backhand and forehand. He found that two kids far outshined the rest in this respect, and those same two were the ones who clearly won more matches.
This was also a big focus back in the 80's when the Swedish national team set out to beat the Chinese. Not only did they not know about multiball before they went to China in the early 80's on a training camp, they actually practiced that very thing. They'd noticed that two out of three balls from the Chinese would be placed in their pocket. So as a counter-method, they learned how to loop and attack efficiently with the backhand, and practiced this switching seamlessly, so they could practically attack any ball, backhand or forehand didn't matter. That's part of what made them beat China =)

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

I always wondered: how do you see where the ball is going to go? I trained once with a high-rated player and after an hour or so I could estimate when he was changing directions. However, this was an educated guess from me after with him for an hour. You don't train an hour with an opponent you're going to challenge at the table.

I don't know. Maybe it's just that it helps you make an educated guess if you look at his bat. Maybe not.
I think that many players follow the ball with their eyes as much as possible, and as such just after they hit a hard stroke they're vulnerable. The ball will already be on its way back before the eyes catch up. Basically I think the trick is to see the ball sooner.

Would you guys be interested in hearing what strokes were taught, and how they were executed? I'm guessing you all know this already, but it might be fun to get some perspective. The ones we practiced were: Against no spin, against topspin (these were sort of chop-blocky), against backspin and an off the table chop. Nothing advanced either, just basic stuff really.

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

I'm certainly interested.

Here goes, then Keep in mind that this is my re-telling of Thalin's instructions, so there might be info lost or twisted on the way =)
Also, the strokes we practiced were intended for the Dornenglanz sheet, i.e. for a sheet of LPs most suited for close to the table play. I found some of them a required a lot more precision with my previous rubber, the RITC 837 with a 0.6 mm sponge. By no means impossible, but I could clearly tell that the 837 is better suited for playing away from the table.
I use the term "initial stance" when I talk about the stance you should return to after each stroke. I've mentioned this earlier, but it's where your elbow is in front of your body and the arm is pointing straight forward. Since the form of the strokes were somewhat new to me, I had no real bad habits to uproot, and I discovered quickly that starting at the initial stance really made things easier.
Anywho:

Against no spin:
Keep the bat angle slightly open in a forward-downward motion. If it's too open it'll go really high really fast (i.e. there's quite a small margin of error. Smaller still with sponged LPs). Adding a side-swiping is encouraged, as it does not add spin, but can fool the opponent. Whether you make this motion long and fluid or shorter and stricter doesn't matter, both work. This seems to me to be some sort of a chop-block.

Against topspin:
Close the bat angle a little bit compared to vs no spin and relax. I find that if I almost try to follow the ball backwards a little, it helps. Also put in some downward motion as well. Think of it as a very relaxed version of the above stroke, with the bat a little more closed.

Against backspin:
Open the bat a little and push the ball forward off the bounce with the top of the bat. When I say push, I mean make a pushing motion rather than the stroke "push". I feel like the best results come when you almost lift the ball, since the topspin will force it down onto the table. Lift it too much, though, and the opponent will get an easy ball. Someone also described it as letting the pips do the work. Try to make it like a whipping motion, and it can be an effective attack.

Chop:
According to Thalin every defender should know this stroke. Even if you play close to the table and rarely ever perform it, you need to know it. There are three key points, the first one at initial stance, the second at your left shoulder (if you're right-handed, otherwise your right shoulder obviously), the third with a straight arm pointing downwards, below the initial stance. The bat should move like one-two-three in a fluid motion. It's really important to start at the initial stance and not at point two. The further you wait, the better the chop. Thalin said that the best chops are when you feel like you're too late. You should try to place yourself so that you hit the ball when it's about the same height as the net. Essentially, the lower you take it the more spin you'll put on it, but it's a trade-off since you'll have a higher trajectory instead.

As these are all very basic strokes, we put no emphasis on foot placements. I know especially the chop usually includes placing one foot in front of the other and what-not, but that's more advanced. These were simple pointers intended for newbies as well as people who've taught themselves for a long time. There were a couple of people at the course who already knew this inside out, and instead came to try out new material such as the KTL Stranger or the Blitzschlag, or just came to get some one on one coaching with Thalin and in general to have a good time and meet like-minded LP aficionados.

Also, I can't stress enough how important it is to relax. You all probably know this already, but it never hurts repeating it. The key to all successful strokes in TT is to be able to relax as much as possible. I discovered, for example, that when I start my loop I'm not quite relaxed, and that makes it a lot harder. What you ideally want is to have your arm hanging straight down, super relaxed, and then perform the loop. I start a little bit above that, already tensing some. It's quite hard to get rid of that habit, but every once in a while I landed a successful "correct" loop and the feeling is so much better. The gain is that you're able to sort of "whip" your bat at the ball, which basically just improves the stroke, if you learn to control it. That goes for every single stroke, though

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

Knorben,

it really is a pleasure to read your posts. It brings Thalinn's LP-coaching a bit to us. You are really privileged to get that kind of coaching. To what levels does Thalinn give these sessions? To one big heterogenous group or are there seperate sessions for beginners & advanced players?

Wish there was an opportunity like that in Belgium, too... The training sessions I get right now are ok and they do develop all aspects of my game, also LP play. But still, I often think that specific exercices and specific LP-coaching would benefit my progress exponentially...

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Exclusive OOAK-Interview with Joo Saehyuk | Masato Shiono | Panagiotis Gionis

Agree with that. I don't know any specific LP training in Belgium, except (from what I heard) in Diest. There's a B2 long pipper, but apparently there's a little "war" going on between the whitelighters and darklighters. One chairman doesn't like LP play, the other does.

It's to one big heterogenous group. Some of the guys there had been on the course multiple times before, and go back even though they already know what's being taught. They still benefit from it due to the one on one time at the end, as well as getting to try loads and loads of equipment.

The courses are open for anyone to apply, even Belgians, but I can see how it's not as relevant, being so far away and all Still, there was this one kid from Guernsey (or Jersey? I forget which) who was going to attend, but he had to cancel. But if you're planning a vacation in Sweden some time, I strongly recommend you match it with one of these courses. =)

Nice to hear you appreciate Thalin's teachings! I'll try to keep it up as much as I can. He told me some Australian forum (I'm suspecting this one) had approached him with some sort of proposition, but there just wasn't time for it at the time.
I consider myself really lucky to have stumbled upon a club such as this, about 5-7 minutes walking distance from my home.

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm

It would be super if he'd still be so kind to make some time for it (he can select whatever question he wants to answer)

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Exclusive OOAK-Interview with Joo Saehyuk | Masato Shiono | Panagiotis Gionis

First session with the new gear today. In short, it was great!
The Dornenglanz offers exactly what I want - about the same as before on chopping, but a lot better with at the table play. Now that I also know how to respond to different shots, like no spin and backspin, I don't feel as handicapped by the pips.
The Pro XT also does really well. I can feel it really bottom out if I back off too much, though, but that's something I'm definitely willing to deal with if I get the added control I have now. It's like night and day compared to the Red Diamond

I also asked Hans how Dornenglanz could be so close to FLPs when tackiness should be the opposite of frictionless. He said that all he knew was purely speculation, but consider a regular tacky, Chinese rubber. If you do a short push with a lot of wrist motion, the rubber will practically ignore the spin that's already on there, right? Why it's like that, no clue, but it is. Tacky rubbers are more insensitive to spin compared to the grippy ones with mechanical spin. Apply the same on tacky LPs, and there you have it. That, by the way, is also the reason why Hans considers Chinese inverted rubbers to be categorically better than Japanese and German ones.
Moreover I asked him about the interview, and he said he'll respond to the questions. So hopefully we'll get answers some time soon

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Blade: Japsko Allround+ | Forehand:LKT Pro XT 1.5 mm | Backhand: Lion Rebirth 0.6 mm
Blade: TSP Black Balsa 3.0 | Forehand:Friendship Fx Supersoft 1.8 mm | Backhand: SpinLord Agenda OX
Blade: Stiga Hypertech CR | Forehand: CTT National Strike 2.0 mm | Backhand: RITC 802 1.5 mm