OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Shoot, I just re-read my post and it sounds as if I am attacking you (which I'm not - I am agreeing ). I'll edit offending sentences.

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USATT: 1807 | League: 1887

I read your post largely as agreement. I just used it as an excuse to elaborate. As you pointed out, it actually transfers over to inverted play as well. You always need to remember what you did to the ball and how that might affect the return. It is most obvious on sidespin serves, but true all round.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

An excellent post NL, and most makes good sense to me.

One point I'd like to make is where you compare the grip of different surfaces, which I don't think it's quite correct, although you may know this already...
Generally long pimples have less grip on the ball compared to antispin, not because rubber compound of the LPs is less grippy, but because the there is much less surface area that's in contact with the balls. You get maximum contact with inverted, so the grip tends to be highest. on the other hand, you tend to get maximum spin reversal with long pimples, because the contact area is the lowest (although since long pimples now have a minimum friction limit, which anti do not have, this is not longer always the case). Since long pimples bend to different extents, the grip also changes because the surface area changes, which makes reading the spin more difficult.

Still you main points stand, and if you practice against the different types of rubber, and think about them simply as different grip levels, you're a long way towards learning how to play against them.

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Thanks for the correction and kind words, haggisv. Much appreciated. I think if frictionless anti didn't exist, my brain would not have been as confused, but I did mess up anti, which is probably the surface I face the least these days (in tournament play, the two guys I played most regularly who used anti, I haven't been matched up against them in tournaments/leagues in a while though I am now a level above them).

Thanks again. I will likely correct the article in a future version at some point. Will also make some mention of your comment at mytabletennis.net (if you don't do it first

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Here are two league matches I lost yesterday, one vs. medium pips, the other vs. long pips. Unfortunately, I had played a hard fought first match against a 2200+ player and for some reason, my right knee, which developed a patella tracking disorder a couple of years ago, felt terrible. These matches came later.

Can you tell who is using medium pips and who is using long pips? Song IMO is likely treating his pips as the level of spin reversal was borderline ridiculous- either that or even my hits have heavy topspin - he also wanted to play with a seamed ball as I think seams feed wobble better. I am going to watch the matches closely and use them to better understand my stroke and the possibilities. I played these matches to some degree under the weight of theorizing. I have been looping way much more than I used to so my matches have a different feel/look (you wouldn't know from these). My robot had an attempted delivery yesterday, but the Fedex man failed to drop it off because he thought I wasn't home...

Again, this is partly a spin read thread. And of course, you can see some of the serves I completely make a mess of.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Both players look like they're very awkward to play against. Lots of fast serves with the pimples, which can be hard to time.
I can't judge from the video if the LP player is playing with treated LPs... but I doubt it, since the pimples seem quite fast, and he seems to play chop-blocks, which can get loads of backspin anyway.

Giving them lots of 'nothing' serves to the pimples, followed by a strong loop is not a bad strategy, although I think you need to mix it up a little more (pace, spin and placement), as they get used to it. A occasional heavy backspin serve against pimples will often result in them putting it into the net, as even LPs still have a decent sensitivity to spin.

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Thanks, HaggisV. That is how I would usually have played them exclusively, but I am trying to use these matches to learn as well since they are league matches. I tried a few things I almost never do, like push to the pips - I almost always reloop everything and live or die with the result. I want to raise my raw ball manipulation and touch to New levels and this will be one of the goals of my robot practice.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

For example, against Liu, I served shorter no spin to the forehand. I would probably combine this with long no spin to the backhand in our next mat ch. I never did this before.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Got my robot and set it up on Friday night at the club. It was annoying to figure out but I think I got pretty far working out the issues. I still have to work on setting up realistic serves, but all in all, it was pretty good and should help me with what I need to work on. The first area of focus I should hopefully try over the next week is manipulating the no-spin serve. I have gotten better at reading it but I still don't have a practiced stroke for it when I do. Another focus is manipulating the sidespin/side top serve - I push it with my backhand because I read it late, but I need to figure out whether I can get a racket angle that doesn't pop it up. If I read it early, I will flick it of course.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Ironically, that was me It wasn't quite the question I actually asked, but his answer is still useful.

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You coulda beat Song 3-0 in a few different ways. You lost points where you kept giving him the same ball (even if you moved him around) or played into what he wanted (medium paced shots he took off the bounce).

When you got down a little and looped heavy on BH, you won about every one of those. You also were able to serve topspin and get knuckle or underspin long, which you loop drove for winners. I cant recall seeing him ready to attack anything, just push through the ball off the bounce.

His pips had friction, some of your serve variation got him to net the ball. You heavy topspin got blocked high & out. His no toss fast serve is tricky to see where it will go and thus make you reluctant to loop, which put him in those rallies he wanted. At some point, you will have to trust that the ball has only light spin and use a short swing to 50/50 spin and lift the ball deep to a good location. Bumping it back to him put you in a disadvantage in the rally.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Today, I received a lesson on something that I tend to tell my students - well, I need to tell myself as well.

Brett always says that the backswing is part of the stroke. Well, he probably also says the next thing, but I will say it as well: the follow through/finishing position is part of the stroke - do not believe the stroke ends once you hit the ball as some would like you to believe! It is easier and more important to finish your stroke into the right recovery position than to hold it back for fear of overhitting/overspinning the ball.

Of recent (past week/week and a half when I haven't been taping that many club matches), Jin has been killing me with his serves. Well, today, MS my practice partner was watching and while I won the first match deuce in the fifth, he noticed something and shared it with me.

He said that I keep practicing the wristy backhand with the follow through that has the bottom of the racket facing the left wall. However, I tend to often stop short when doing the stroke and that when I do it, I make it but when I don't I miss it. I should stop hesitating and just do the stroke that I practice and shadow.

I made this fix and lo and behold, I started looping Jin's serve. It got so funny that Jin started missing serves. On one point, I backhand looped the ball and Jin blocked it and off topspin, I backhand looped it again! At that point I was just in a zone. I won that match in straight sets. I changed rackets and rubbers to test equipment for some reviews in the 3rd game, but even then, I managed to hit some backhand loops and still win 3-2 going away in the final game.

The moral of the story is simple: do the stroke that you shadow practice. The follow through is part of the stroke (as is the backswing). If you have good technique, don't stop when you hit the ball unless that is what the stroke you practiced/trained requires!

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I played the A player in the event earlier and I messed up my right knee (not as badly as I thought, but it felt like horse manure). So I just didn't want to move and aggravate anything. After the match, everyone looked at me like - "really, you didn't just topspin him off the table..." and I had to keep telling them I couldn't plant my foot. If I had known that my injury risk wasn't as bad as I thought, it would have been a different match. I wore a brace later (you see it on in the match vs. Liu).

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

OK, that makes sense, I know you got the ability to do it and a physical reason is a reasonable explanation.

I dropped to USATT 1750 in two tourneys playing with a torn rotator cuff tendon (bad grade 2) and I couldn't rotate my arm to do a BH loop... and that is a huge part of my game. So Heavy Spin who ran the last tourney saw result after result where i lose to 1500 level players and he must have been shaking hiz head, he knows my game and level, even if I got fat and was 5 months out of practice. It was the injury that really stopped me from doing what i do best. After 3-4 months of exercising it to the limit (it didnt take much to get to that point) and some other strengthening stuff, I could finally begin to play my normal style a little.... now I can play at 80-90 combat speed.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Song didn't play today, but this two winged looper still had revenge on the pips out crowd. I forgot to take my camera off the 60 fps mode so more videos than necessary....

Some of it was luck, but a good deal of it was finishing out my backhand stroke like MS told me to do rather than stopping short in real matches. If you do a short stroke, it's critical to still complete the full wrist motion on the backhand loop, whether over the table or off the table. Don't abbreviate the finish unless that is what you shadow in your practice. Do the stroke and recover.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus