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PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 20:35 
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Iron Pips
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
You may recall that I once started a blog about this subject :).


Was that the initial cause of your blog? I remember you went different routes (MP, flanti,...). Long time you posted there! :(
I started it for that purpose (maaany years ago), but then it took some other directions.
Well, I just don't have the time or will to write as much on these subjects anymore and it is not that fun to write when I am not doing any big changes, just small steps ahead.

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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:33 
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Def-attack wrote:
Well, I just don't have the time or will to write as much on these subjects anymore and it is not that fun to write when I am not doing any big changes, just small steps ahead.


Yeah, but those small steps forward and the hindrances you encounter might help others. As far as I know there aren't a lot of experiences shared converting to flanti.

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2019, 02:04 
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Hahah, everywhere on the globe is the same: No advantage comes w/o disadvantage. Myself keep switching back and forth for 10 (!) years now between SP & LP Defense. I can adjust between them within 1-2 hours of exercise and play more or less on the same level. Everytime I switch I do have the feeling of coming home :rofl: I‘ve spent quite a lot money for this hobby. Anyway everything which keeps the boredome out and table tennis in my life I consider a good thing..... as long as I can afford :?:

Have Fun !

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2019, 07:29 
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Had a bash at my 802 1.5 today. For some chopping on all blade and a spinny rev. Chopping does not feel as secure as with Lps for sure. Quite fast and made many mistakes. However the ability to switch rapidly from defence to attack is pronounced more so than with Lps. Kinda think that it requires softer hands smaller stoke otherwise ball flies off end. However the usual flat hits still available. Hou Ying Chao makes it look easy. His chops are quite aggressive. Also he seems to impart a lot of spin that often decieves. Tried playing away from table a bit more. Really requires much practice.


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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2019, 07:53 
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Not much reporting to do from this week. I'm still using the P4 and I'm trying to learn the backhand loop. I searched the internet and found a couple of videos playing that loop, including the video of yangyang. I played half an hour against low level defender F. I could loop both backspin and no spin with my BH if I used the inverted on it. His backspin chops are very heavy, so that's a good sign. Needed to concentrate on it, though, which is normal, but that means the stroke is not ready for gameplay. Timing is everything. I didn't try to use the pips, though.

I think I'm going to twiddle when (1) the opponent uses no spin tactics and (2) when I'm drawn into the table with a push after a successful chop.

I'm still doubting to go back to P1-R or stay with P4 for the moment. I think it depends on how good the P4 loops.

I got injured a bit: an old injury around my chest. That'll teach me to chop good on FH! :lol: See how that will go. I might have to take a break of minimum 2 weeks to heal if it's still present this coming week.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2019, 12:59 
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Is the short pips swap conclusively ended, then?

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2019, 18:21 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Is the short pips swap conclusively ended, then?


Not entirely... I'll still try SSPC II after the season has ended. But for now I'll stay with P4, the SP disguised in a LP.

There still will be a lot of interesting content, though. The twiddling part is one of them. I also might report the hatred LP players get in these areas. And how will the club saga end?

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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2019, 07:16 
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Def-attack wrote:
Interesting! P4 is great for safe and varied chopping. Did you try Feint III? I have not tried that but I imagine they are very similar but I got the feeling FIII is more easy for attacking. Can anyone verify that or am I just guessing?

About twiddeling - make up a couple of rules when to twiddle and then practice, then do it in matches at practice and then at matches that really matter. Have a look at Ruwen and Swedish defender Gustaf Ericsson (https://youtu.be/iHNeTY1-4uw).

Pushing against good players is mostly better to do with pips (sponges pips at least) because that gives a hesitation. Good players are very used to loop against a good inverted push.


I have both Feint Long 3 (1.1mm) and P4 (1.5mm). Indeed they are very similar. Basically have same strengths and weaknesses. Both very spinny long pips that you can float and chop with. I'd say Feint Long is slightly steadier and P4 slightly spinnier, but how much of this is down to the difference in sponge thickness I don't know. But both have next to no reversal, with sponge anyway. This is confirmed by being able to float a chop when the opponent gave you a super heavy loop. Spin doesn't really build up. Basically a watered down short pip spin wise but with some of the forgiveness of long pips. A great middle ground I think.

My problem with both is the sponge. Way too soft for me. Trying Stiga Horizontal very soon with 55 degree sponge, so could be a superior version of these high grip pips if it hts the right notes.

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FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2019, 07:40 
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You disagreeing with me about heavy slowish loppers being a problem with short pips as a defender could be down to a few things. For one, I wasn't a short pip inverted combo chopper. I was a hard bat player (did play with smooth and sponged pip on some of first few years playing) who competed normally against standard equipment. Also styles. My dad had similar equipment but didnt struggle against slowish heavy spin loppers, but then I found some styles easy thst we're challenging for him. Maybe you're just a better chopper than me lol.

Never played in US but was estimated to be around 2300/2400 years back. I even used a hardbat against professionals for a period, and had some good wins relative to what I invested in the sport.

I undoubtedly would have done better with something like Spectol on 1.8mm. But here I am today skipping that and using long pips and smooth rubber on a modern blade. Definitely way easier to win points than with a hardbat, as you'd expect. But I do wonder still if throwing away the skills I developed with spin variation is worth it. Still have with the smooth rubber, but pretty much just forcing them to net the ball or push for me to hit, in terms of how I use the long pips. It's a different game now. I think I won more points with chops with the hardbat, and more with my forehand attack with long pip smooth rubber combo.

Rallies maybe were longer with the hardbat, but the rallies were more varied, more well rounded. With long pip smooth rubber combo, much more predicable. Most attacks go to my body or to long pips. I guess because of yhr slower pace as aggressive with forehand more often thst not, hitting more thsb I chop. They either net the ball after 2-3/4ish loops (can be more with the higher players) or push and I come in with forehand, or sometimes backhand. Think it's a more effective pattern than before, but also feel like I have less options. Well, I do have less options.

I think for most of us, even including the pros, long pips probably still is the best bet for defending. Just makes a difficult task a bit easier. Get more balls back and the spin buildup should force a push or an error fairly early against most amateurs at least.

It has been in my mind to revert back to short pips but discussions on threads with skilless_slapper I think has persuaded me that the forgiveness of long pips probably narrowly outweighs the variation of short pips, overall. For me thst is. Though possible I'll change my mind oneday lol. Maybe if Stiga Horizontal 55 blends P4 type topsheet with a harder sponge I'll find the balance I'm looking for. Or maybe just hsvrbto suck it up and accept that while P1r is not very well rounded, it's outstanding at what it does do well. And thst I feel I am playing well with it.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2019, 04:19 
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Snowman89 wrote:
I have both Feint Long 3 (1.1mm) and P4 (1.5mm). Indeed they are very similar. Basically have same strengths and weaknesses. Both very spinny long pips that you can float and chop with. I'd say Feint Long is slightly steadier and P4 slightly spinnier, but how much of this is down to the difference in sponge thickness I don't know. But both have next to no reversal, with sponge anyway. This is confirmed by being able to float a chop when the opponent gave you a super heavy loop. Spin doesn't really build up. Basically a watered down short pip spin wise but with some of the forgiveness of long pips. A great middle ground I think.

My problem with both is the sponge. Way too soft for me. Trying Stiga Horizontal very soon with 55 degree sponge, so could be a superior version of these high grip pips if it hts the right notes.


How is it watered down then? And have you tried Horizontal 55 already?

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2019, 08:05 
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Watered down in the sense that you can't force as many errors with those LP when compared to SP, where they have more grip so you dictate the variation. So it's like a lower friction short pip. More safety at the cost of less manipulation.

I know with those you can do fairly heavy sidespin chops and get the ball really arcing sideways. But not to the killer degree that a Hou type side chop gets. In fact, do even the pro LP choppers try the sidespin banana chops?

Maybe it's my technique with the sponged LP... even with 1.6mm sponge on the curl p4, it still seems like rather weak spin to me. I think I'm chopping heavy and hard, but the amount of spin does not reflect what my mental image is telling me :lol: :lol: What do you think about it? p4 vs short pip in spinning vs a dead ball?

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2019, 13:54 
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To Lorre and Snow -- what were your experiences with using SP vs LP over the first few hits of the point?

Did you win more points with SP early on, since you could put heavy spin on right away... and with LP did you last longer, getting more points through extended chopping/pushing rallies?

For me... my games don't look anything like pro level! Neither are the players. I've only played a 2300+ rated player a few times in a tournament setting. And the first time, the guy kept looking at the score sheet wondering if there was a mistake on the matching :lol: he even asked the tournament officials about it :rofl:

Point being, I don't often face super-mega-power loopers going to crush every ball. Even at 2000-2200 level or so, there are still a lot of mistakes being made compared to the next tier up.

Now with the dinking style, the rallies can go on quite awhile. I mean... quite awhile! I oftentimes just win out of boredom and frustration on the opponent's part! Wanting to get the game over with so they just start hitting everything left and right, before storming off and telling everyone I suck. :rock:

Which is why I wonder if the SP would be worthwhile to learn over a longer period of time -- in the hope that my early game is more effective. Meaning I could bring about danger earlier on, instead of the dink dink dink, wait them out variety of games. Having said that, the OX LP offer me a huge crutch in terms of returning any ball. But it's just a dink ball return. I win through attrition and consistency, not on any great play or deception.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2019, 20:58 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Watered down in the sense that you can't force as many errors with those LP when compared to SP, where they have more grip so you dictate the variation. So it's like a lower friction short pip. More safety at the cost of less manipulation.

I know with those you can do fairly heavy sidespin chops and get the ball really arcing sideways. But not to the killer degree that a Hou type side chop gets. In fact, do even the pro LP choppers try the sidespin banana chops?

Maybe it's my technique with the sponged LP... even with 1.6mm sponge on the curl p4, it still seems like rather weak spin to me. I think I'm chopping heavy and hard, but the amount of spin does not reflect what my mental image is telling me :lol: :lol: What do you think about it? p4 vs short pip in spinning vs a dead ball?


I think your analysis is spot on there skilless slapper.

For me, wiry Feint Long 3, the floats were not quite as dead and the heavy chops weren't quite as heavy as with Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX short pips. So imagine how much that gap would increase with SSPC2 in a thickish sponge.

P4 in 1.5mm actually capable of an extremely heavy chop for me. Almost as heavy as with Hurricabe 3 neo. Not quite there, but close enough to force a lot of players to net the very first shot. Again, floats not quite as floaty as with short pips. So while I think P4 creates more backspin oddly than Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX short pips, I feel the Alpha has a wider range still. Chops not quite as heavy but the floats can be made completely dead, and can add side spin effectively (agree that sideslin with P4 possible but maybe not overly effective, but maybe still worth incorporating). So still easier to force opponent to pay for misjudging your spin.

But P4 still capable of fooling the opponent with variations of spin, at least in 1.5mm. For this reason, if I can ditch the soft sponge, I think it would at least bring it level with P1r for me, if not become my rubber of choice. This is what I have in mind regarding Horizontal 55, which haven't tried yet but ordered.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 02:28 
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Lorre wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
I have both Feint Long 3 (1.1mm) and P4 (1.5mm). Indeed they are very similar. Basically have same strengths and weaknesses. Both very spinny long pips that you can float and chop with. I'd say Feint Long is slightly steadier and P4 slightly spinnier, but how much of this is down to the difference in sponge thickness I don't know. But both have next to no reversal, with sponge anyway. This is confirmed by being able to float a chop when the opponent gave you a super heavy loop. Spin doesn't really build up. Basically a watered down short pip spin wise but with some of the forgiveness of long pips. A great middle ground I think.

My problem with both is the sponge. Way too soft for me. Trying Stiga Horizontal very soon with 55 degree sponge, so could be a superior version of these high grip pips if it hts the right notes.


How is it watered down then? And have you tried Horizontal 55 already?


Spin range of P4 and feint long 3 not as wide as with a lot of short pips. That's what I mean by watered down. As skilless slapper says, means can't force as many errors as with short pips. But can still force errors in short pip fashion, opposed to the spin buildup of other long pips.

Haven't tried Horizontal 55 yet but I'll have it soon and will post my thoughts after I've given it a good test. Going to put it with P4 on other side to directly compare them.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2019, 02:53 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
To Lorre and Snow -- what were your experiences with using SP vs LP over the first few hits of the point?

Did you win more points with SP early on, since you could put heavy spin on right away... and with LP did you last longer, getting more points through extended chopping/pushing rallies?

For me... my games don't look anything like pro level! Neither are the players. I've only played a 2300+ rated player a few times in a tournament setting. And the first time, the guy kept looking at the score sheet wondering if there was a mistake on the matching :lol: he even asked the tournament officials about it :rofl:

Point being, I don't often face super-mega-power loopers going to crush every ball. Even at 2000-2200 level or so, there are still a lot of mistakes being made compared to the next tier up.

Now with the dinking style, the rallies can go on quite awhile. I mean... quite awhile! I oftentimes just win out of boredom and frustration on the opponent's part! Wanting to get the game over with so they just start hitting everything left and right, before storming off and telling everyone I suck. :rock:

Which is why I wonder if the SP would be worthwhile to learn over a longer period of time -- in the hope that my early game is more effective. Meaning I could bring about danger earlier on, instead of the dink dink dink, wait them out variety of games. Having said that, the OX LP offer me a huge crutch in terms of returning any ball. But it's just a dink ball return. I win through attrition and consistency, not on any great play or deception.


Yes, short pips can lead to shorter rallies for sure, one way or another.

My initial experience when first making the switch was that I'd have to play a couple of extra balls with long pips but would be less likely to make an error. Kind of standard, something we all know here I think.

Think things are different for me now with P1r and Hurricane. Points are maybe quicker than ever before. But that's because I'm aimimg to use the advantages of both to win points, which is force error or push with long pips and mop up with forehand.

I'm finding with P1r in 1.5mm most players will net the ball after 2-3 loops in succession. A couple of strong players I've hit with looped an average say of 2-7 in a row though. Either that or they push, which is an oppoertunity to hit. Very different to when using Feint Long 2, where felt that I would be in for some rallies. But part of that could be me just getting better at cutting the ball with long pips.

So my point here is maybe if you want to cut the rallies down, give your long pip but with sponge a long trial. As this thread uncovers perhaps, you only switch around who you find easier by going the short pip route, though against players who don't play with a lot of spin, short pips obviously have an advantage over long pips.

Don't know if they still make it, or if you've tried it, but Dr Evil, a short pip, would give you good control and reliability against heavy spin, but you have some access to spin manipulation. Lose out on reversal but if you're ending up in a lot of long rallies with ox long pips, maybe it's because opponents don't play with enough spin. So something like Dr Evil would give you options you don't hsve in those situations with ox long pips.

But I'm not really in a position to tell you what to do lol. I'm here too on this thread at the of the day battling my own indecisiveness on whether to stick with long pips or go the Spectol and co route. The problem for me is both sides have really strong positives, and you cant have both. So will always miss the other I think now, whichever I choose. Putting a lot of hope in Horizontal 55 then lol. I think for me it's not a case of P1r not working for me, but rather that I don't yet feel comfortable not being fully in control of what I'm doing. I can only reduce or speed up reversal with P1r, and while it seems to be effective, I would prefer I think to retain a little more control over spin.

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 17 Dec 2019, 06:03, edited 1 time in total.

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