OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Going with secondhand information, what someone said in another post was that Elena Timina (when asked why do some defenders only fish/loop on the FH and not chop?) told them the problem with FH chopping is they often are not skilled enough at the actual chopping aspect of it. So their returns go too short on the table, and the attacker can push very short (double bounce) much easier. And that ultra low and short push is a terrible ball for a modern defender to run down. Since even if you get there, you can't do much with it.

That's why she said it is easier for most people to fish on the forehand so they can at least keep the ball deep, not falling victim to a short push.

People playing that style are quite numerous - chen weixing (p1r 1.5-1.7 thickness?), gionis (fl2 in 1.1 thickness?), jian li (cloud & fog 3 OX), markus grothe (d.tecs OX) and a bunch of other players. But you know what... when is the last time you saw a female modern defender that DID NOT chop on the forehand? I've not seen one female defender play a game like chen or gionis. Wu Yang, Han Ying, Suh Hyo Won, Sato Hitomi, Li Qian etc. etc. they are all forehand choppers. Now, is that due to the power of the men's game? You'd have to imagine so, or else why wouldn't they be using the same style?

But you know the pros are capable at that level. Shiono, Joo, Yuto, Matsushita etc.

I think it must come down to a time investment kind of thing. The time spent practicing chop could be spent learning to attack (and win more points outright). Meaning the pros who do chop must really love to do it stylistically, and see an advantage from doing so. And from my observations, if you have a really good forehand - capable of blasting people from every situation - then it really doesn't matter too much what you do with the backhand. Since your game is basically get it to the FH and win. Problem there is you need to have great anticipation skills and/or high athleticism to run around and finish points.

For the Elena Timina style of 'waiting them out' at the amateur level, it seems I really only have to do that 1-3 times at the start of the game. Make it into a boring push rally, where your opponent loses. Then they know that kind of game is not going to benefit them, so they must attack or change something up. Even I get bored doing them but I try to use my poker face, and let them think I can play the old man push-push-push style until the sun goes down.

Markus Grothe was the guy in the 3rd video, he uses OX LP d.tecs. And I agree, each ball is more of a 'dink' shot not really caring what spin is on it. That's how I play, using the same rubber. Just bop it back over and over, but I chop much more on the forehand. So it becomes a combination of the Elena style with the OX rubber, focusing on pure consistency.

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SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

The friction rule would negate the rest of the idea, but for the 2nd part -- if you hit the ball flatly the pips will not bend much. More of a 'punch-chop' as I call it. Where you punch solidly into the ball, not trying to brush at all. I do it with my OX d.tecs now, so was just imagining that's how it would work.

I think that's why they made the uniform friction level on the pips. Some old guy I play with was commenting on how he used to play with weird pips, where some times it would be reversal and other times the side of the pips would add a lot of spin.

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SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

If you look at his blade, you can see he angles it more straight up and down and pulls his elbow more vertically raking along the right side of the ball. Notice he doesn't do it against very fast hits. It would be very hard to time and not give a massive pop up even if it landed.

He's still borrowing the top spin but instead of converting it to backspin, he angles on the side of the ball - so he continues the "top spin" off the pips but returned in a sideways direction (paddle is more on the side of the ball as opposed to the back in a normal chop).

When serving with p4 or feint long 3, I can do the ghost style serve fairly easily. That being a back spin serve that rolls back toward the net or even hops over it. So I know they are both capable of producing a good deal of spin on a very fine brushing stroke. I have trouble doing that particular style while in live play since it requires a fine touch.

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SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

It's Yasaka's elfrark in 1mm, red. Not very popular and no reviews of it in 1mm but imo the best chop + attack pimple from those that I've tried (15+ different sheets).

I agree with the theory about why some choppers don't chop on the forehand. Ding Song in the ittf interview talked about the difficulty choppers face, having to train both attack and defense. Defense has to match attacker and a defenders attack also needs to match an attacker. Difficult to do when there's only so much time to train per day. Meaning attackers benefit from pretty much almost entirely training to attack.

So one way of dealing with this is forgetting the chop on the forehand. Just train attacking and fishing from afar. As far as I'm aware, players like Filus like to use Tenergy in max thickness. Whereas Joo uses/used it in 1.9mm. I'm assuming to give him a tad extra control when chopping, since he chops a lot with forehand. Can see the power difference too. Joo has excellent forehand but nowhere near as powerful as say Gionis or Filus. Possibly also technique and 'natural' power. Also training hours dedicated to hitting forehands.

I think this is one of the things causing Ma Te some problems. His defense can match up well against anyone. He even seems to be competitive with Xu Xun game to game, even if he's not crossing the line and winning many of them. But his forehand, as some YouTube comments have pointed out, is like a average female pro. Maybe technique and hours dedicatesd to forehand attacks, but it's also possible he's just using a slow sponge under his Hurricane. He chops so well on both wings. Maybe that's the compromise he's settled for on purpose, I don't know.

Taking a guess, I'd say we dont see many female choppers chopping with backhand and attacking/fishing with forehand because of the speed/spin difference between the top male and female players. Absorbing attacks from top 100 male players probably less forgiving than top 100 female players. So perhaps forehand chop doesn't have to be as perfect to be fairly successful. Also, generally female players don't hit with quite as much power, certainly away from the table. So just attacking with forehand from defensive distance while chopping with backhand maybe harder to do. Very easy for say Filus to take control of the point with just one power shot.

Could be way off there. But comparing to other sports too. In tennis, female pros don't have quite the same serve advantage as male pros. More breaks of serve because they don't generate the same power and spin. It's not a massive difference as such, but enough to make a difference.

I met a player from Ireland who's somewhat of a 'legend' to a lot of Irish players. He's well over 70 now but still dominates a ton of players, even ones far younger. Anti on both sides. When he was young he won the European champs in doubles or something. Even played with Barna at one point. Most caps ever in his country or something. Anyway, point is this. Hes as patient as a robot. You wouldnt know he's a person while playing. No emotion. Push push push push. Gives you absolutely nothing. Chops if you hit, but capable of attacking too but always times his attacks. Heard about a match where he was 9-9 in the deciding set of some final. He didn't hit a single shot all match. But decided to hit the last two to win the match lol. He's old but reads the game well. Like some video game, knows where you're going to put it in advance somehow, like befire you even know where you're going to put it lol. Apparently beat the over 40s national champ of somewhere. So a patient, ultra passive style works very well. Frustrates the hell out of opponents. So if that's what works for you Skilless Slapper, keep doing it. The bit which sounds off though is thst you get bored too lol. So what happens if someone is ultra patient against you? Do you then lose patience, or just stick with it, despite getting bored?

The Grothe rallies look entertaining. So I wouldn't imagine you'd get bored against someone who engages. Maybe more the ones who don't engage.

To me, it sounds like short pips is wrong direction to go for you. Think maybe getting a picture of your style. To continue in that direction best just to go with max consistency. Be patient and annoy people lol. If you want to start shortening points, which sounds like you do with your question to Lorre and myself, then thst would require a style change too. A change in mindset. Would thst be more fun for you, or do you see it as potentially raising your level?

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Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

LOL. I'll let you know if you're right .

Let me know your thoughts about Vertical should you ever try it.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

That's interesting. Never heard of it before. How is the sponge? Absorbing? Is it possible to take a picture ofthe pip and upload it here?

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There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that

I just ordered last week from TT11. Didn't order them, though.

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that

Just to let the readers of my blog know I'm currently injured around the chest. It went away for a while to come back in a vengeance. Probably the stress of the new job... I'll be resting for the next two weeks to let the injury heal. So no updates until then! Off course the ongoing discussion can be continued.

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

My blog on being a LP defender beyond 2000 USATT and the pips discrimination that comes along with that

I've used the vertical and horizontal 20 both in the bigger sponges. Honestly, there's not much difference between the two of them. I think if you blind tested people, they'd be hard-pressed to guess which they were using... In fact, you could probably toss in p4 and they'd still think it was the stiga pip!

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

Yasaka Elfrark has vertically aligned pips according to thread here. Only briefly scanned initial comments but yes, looks to be a do it all pip. Blocks, chops, hits, it's all good. But doesn't do any one thing spectacularly. Of course that's just the opinion of a few on thst thread. There are a lot of people I've read talking about P4 being crap basically, which is not true. It's one of the very best. Just has specific qualities that don't apply to a lot of choppers for various reasons.

So not judging Yasaka Elfrark. But think the vertically aligned pips probably won't suit me, because of the limitations in backspin potential on paper. Still, I've noted it and might try it at some point.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Thats strange. I'd expect there to be a notable difference.

The pip alignment should affect spin potential. They are the same rubber though, just different alignment, so I guess when you look at it thst way there will be similarities.

P4 felt very similar to Feint Long 3 despite the difference in spinge thickness, so I can probably begin to imagine how similar Horizontal and Vertical would be. Definitely noticeable difference between P4 and Feint long 3 though, but as I've said, how much of thst is down to the sponge I don't know.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Yes, it's vertically aligned. The backspin potential is big when chopping fast vs hard attacks. Elfrark 1.0 > p1r 0.5 in chopping (and everything else pretty much except maybe serve receive). The sponge can be quite fast... But in defense the rubber absorbs pace well but p1r in 1.5 is still better at absorbing pace from very fast balls. For a photo, just google.

This is a pic of Yasaka Elfrart.

Well, Pure Luck, based on what you're saying, P1r in 1.5mm and Elfrart in 1.5mm should be comparable in terms of backspin potential. Probably P1r still ahead because your reference had a difference of 0.5 in sponge.

You say emergency chops send back a floaty ball thst is often overhit by opponents. My emergency chop with P1r in 1.5mm goes back with a lot of spin and is often hit into the net by the opponent. Depends on the type of emergency chop though I guess. Some do go back with very little spin if didbt get to do a proper motion.

Maybe difference is style of chop or could be down to the rubber. You saying Elfrart has backspin potential at least nearly as high as P1r though makes it sound just like the better option. Because P1r is great really only for blend of forgiveness and backspin potential. But those two things do work really well.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Why do you think the rubber is not popular? Poor marketing, maybe doesn't fit the usual mold of what people are looking for in defensive pips? Wondering because sounds like it blends a lot of things well and thst more people should be using it.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX