OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Actually your observations are very interesting. I have had similar perceptions to you about the USATT ratings. But I've formed the perception mainly from forum chat and the odd vid, which really is quite difficult to discern a lot from. No actual direct experience. So it could all be wrong.

Now if you tried to suggest anyone at my level was any sort of "beginner" over here, you could soon be involved in a fist-fight. A few elite juniors play up around my level, but they are trained daily and have been in the junior program at our club generally for several years, so even they cannot be considered any sort of beginner. While I understand you probably use the term beginner slightly differently to what we do here, I could not consider you a beginner given your time in the game now. Perhaps there should be a clearer word, as beginner to us here means "new starter" and would generally only apply for perhaps the first year or 2 in the game. I actually think that number of years playing does not exactly equate to level, and therefore using a term like "beginner" to describe level is a sort of misnomer. Perhaps we should start a thread to create a better descriptive scale. Like Bad.....Good....Very Good....Excellent or something, but maybe we could come up with something a bit more sophisticated.

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

If 1600 is considered a beginner in your area, do players just starting out not play in competitions at all? Here in the U.S., part of the attraction of the system is that even if you just picked up a paddle and started playing you can get a rating, play in official tournaments, and win official events. It sounds like, in your system, these players could not play at all until they achieved a higher level of play. In which case, I like our system better, it encourages more beginners to get more into competitions early on.

I'd say that a 2000 level player is a very solid player with good skills and a good amount of consistency. You have to be pretty good to reach 2000 level. Right now I'm just above 1800 and would consider myself to be intermediate, in relation to the other players in our region. In our state, we don't have a lot of high rated tournament players, so I'm relatively high rated in our state. But that's because a number of our better players only play casually at the clubs and don't establish a rating.

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"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

1600 is an average USATT player.

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

The thing about my game is, I don't think you can judge it truly from the video because it is an unorthodox style that, I admit, isn't pretty. But it's really effective. The more that someone plays me the better they do, because they get used to my style. But the first time I play someone, I feel like I'm most dangerous and that's why I can play above my level against someone unfamiliar with me.

I'd say that, based on my past results, I'm an honest 1800 level player. Do I think I could do well against people in the division 4 level in yours? I have no idea. For me, it so much depends on matchup and style, it really could go either way, and I'm not comfortable enough saying "yes" or "no" one way or the other.

_________________
"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

The bottom line to me is that it's all conjecture anyway, since unless players play against one another there's no way to know. It's fun to have this thread and have these online matches, but I don't think an overall general statement can be made like "USATT 2000 players are intermediate and below are advanced beginner". I'm certainly not 2000, but I don't consider myself an "advanced beginner" either. Maybe it's all relative; in the states, maybe there are more beginners so 1800 is, in the U.S., intermediate relative to the level of all players. Similar to the example you point out about football players. Since we're making guesses here, though, I think you're underrating U.S. players.

_________________
"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

I think I can only agree with you Doug. I certainly don't class myself as any sort of beginner after 32 years playing TT with 12 of that playing competition and 20 playing socially. Am I an expert? I don't think so. Are there better players than me in Australia? Without doubt, I'm am way lower than any State level players (in Victoria for sure and the other states I'm sure too), although I did have 2 sets against a Victorian State player a couple of months ago and took him to 11-9 and 15-13, (although he was using his pick of someone else's bats).

Maybe Speedplay is right and TT in Sweden is so much stronger than our countries that our level really is lower. I really don't know. That's not the point of these virtual games to find out either. Its all in fun and discussion prompting, which it is certainly doing. Does it even matter who is better? I don't really think so. What's imprtant is we all love the game and love to discuss it. As with lots of things we discuss on the forum, there are no solutions and the discussions can only go in circles. But the forum circles are fun!! And the smack talk of who is better is just that. A game where we can boost ourselves up (and some friendly put downs of our opponent) regardless of the truth. I think Speedplay is an expert at this and I'm not bad at it myself! I think we just have to keep the "fun" aim in mind and not get carried away and think any of this is serious.

I think we are having a good verbal (well written...hmmm, typed actually ) game here and I hope everyone is enjoying the banter.

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Yes I agree. I far as I know, the point of this thread is not to determine who is the better player, Reb or Speedplay, but who is the better talker and who's better at convincing others that they are the better player.

Of course we already know who is the better player

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
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Please share Haggisv you !!!

Nah its OK, I know its me!!

I'd automatically deserve to lose this game if I didn't think this! After all, how can I expect others to vote for me if I don't believe it myself. And that's just what we must think every time we stand at the end of the table....right!!

Speaking of voting, has anyone noticed I've caught up with Speedplay? Thanks to all who have voted for me so far, if there are any new voters out there, or any swinging ones, clicking the Reb button will give you a good feeling!

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

I am a swing voter. All Speedplay need to do is discard all humility, and show me his best talk Otherwise, I will stick by Reb By the way, when is last final voting day?

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Public opinion is swinging like a yoyo... somehow I doubt this is still related to who claims to be the better player...

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

While I agree that the overall level of play in North America is significantly lower than Europe or Asia, your choice of words could have been better.

I wouldn't classify a 1500-2000 player who has decades of experience as an "advanced beginner."

Here's how I'd break it down:

0-1000: Beginner
1000-1500 Lower Level Player
1500-2000 Intermediate Level Player
2000-2500 Upper Level Player
2500+ Elite Level Player

That said, I don't think we have any homegrown USATT talent good enough to play in the top Euro men's leagues, so realistically our top young players would at best belong in a third or more likely fourth level league in Germany, not sure how that compares to Sweden.

Of our top five, four are over 40 and one's a woman. We have 31 men rated over 2500, and we saw how that level compares to Waldner at SPiN NYC (not good). The one source of pride for USATT players is Gao Jun, who even at 40 is a better player than any women in Sweden.

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

2000 seems to be about the magic number. Players below 2000 generally have one or more serious weaknesses. Players above 2000 are stronger with a more solid overall game.

That said, I saw a recent game on YouTube between our #12 (2573) vs #21 (2552) rated players. Maybe it was just a bad style matchup, but these guys had so many errors it was embarrassing. Generally very ugly points. TT in this country has a long way to go.

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

Wow Speedplay, there's a whole lof of humility there!! Looks like I'll be keeping Choi's vote!!

Reading between the lines (or maybe on the lines ) here I'd almost say you'd thrown in the towel!!

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

LOLROFLMAOITLMAOLOL, there is more smack talk in this thread than in any random 6 month perdiod between me and Speedplay. Way to go for bringing the energy. I sure hope Speedplay has a LARGE supply if tissue when we meetup and play. One box might not be enough, unless he poisons my food or drink.

As for this thread departing from debate about skill, it NEVER was about skill in the first place - only about what it takes to convince someone to check one of the two blocks - period. I checked my block and stand by it, even if Speedplay is one of my longest standing friends on the TT forums. He seems to want to hear that often and I am not one of those sensitive dudes who say that crap often.

Keep this one rolling. you are all making me roll over laughing at length.

Lack of numerous vids from either player make this smackdown faceoff even more intruiging.

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@MNNB: That video was very sad. I have watched 2200/2300s who had a far more solid game than those two players. I am certain that we will never have players that can compare to the quality of German players but we certainly do have players of higher quality than in that video.

@This whole USATT banter, the point of the USATT rating system is that it is for players who live and compete in the US. Any person can come over and do well in 1 tournament and gain a high rating. However, this tends to equalize out after they have played in several tournaments. For instance, a regional league player from Germany came down and played in a tournament. The player instantly gained a rating of 2000, though he barely beat me in the 5 game set we had...xD Anyways, the next tournament he played in, there were several players ranked between 1900-2000. They beat him senselessly and his rating went down to about 1900 where he belonged.

The first time a player is rated in the USATT system, it is very easy to become overrated. This is because they take the lowest-rated person you lost to and the highest-rated person you beat added together and then divided by two. So lets say you barely beat an 1800 rated player, meaning your rating is around 1800. If you don't lose to anyone rated under 1800, but the lowest rated person you lose to is 2300, then you will be rated a 2050. However, when you compete in the next tournament, you will lose major points if your skill level is not enough to compete with the 1900s and 2000s you will be playing against. The first rating is only a best guess of what your rating could be. It in no way means that you are what you are rated until you have proven it.

@Speedplay: If Def is playing div 6 right now, are we ignoring the fact that within time he will rise in divisions? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can only rise in 1 division per season right? Even if a player is skilled enough to start in div3, he still must rise in the ranks according to the way you guys do leagues.

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USATT rating - 1971