OOAK Table Tennis Forum

With thanks to Larry Thoman (member larrythoman), here is an update from the FIT (Federation of International Table Tennis Manufacturers) about the polyball:

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

That sounds very interesting. Now its sounding like the patents were perhaps taken out less for profit reasons and more to prevent the game moving away from celluloid as long as possible. I wonder if this could have been the motivation behind taking out the patents knowing the ITTF was going to one day go down this path? If it was, it turns what a seemingly evil act into a very noble one, IMO anyway. Thanks to Haggisv and Larry for the update!

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

That's not the way I interpret the patent holders' actions. The patent holders are Dr. Thomas Wollheim and In Sook Yoo. In Sook Yoo is the wife of Dr. Joachim Kuhn. Dr. Kuhn is a long-standing member of the Equipment Committee in charge of ball testing within the ITTF. This relationship with one of the patent holders and Dr. Kuhn's status as a member of the committee that would recommend that ITTF switch over to poly balls is highly suspicious.

Did Dr. Kuhn use his "insider knowledge" to predict the ultimate "demise" of the celluloid ball and ITTF's switchover to poly balls and then file worldwide patents to take financial advantage of this "inevitable" occurrence? Did Dr. Kuhn try to "hide" his involvement in this transaction by using his wife's name on the patents?

I do believe that the patent holders' motives were financial in nature and not altruistic in nature as you proffer. Patents are very expensive to file and maintain. Unless Dr. Kuhn and his wife were financially independent, I don't see them filing these patents if they had no expectation of profiting from them at some point in time.

Also I doubt that a member of the ITTF's own Equipment Committee would intentionally sabotage ITTF's efforts to switch over to the poly ball. I don't think the patent holders thought that TT manufacturers would stick their collective feet down and refuse to produce poly balls without relief from the patent. Rather I think it is more likely that they thought they could file patents for all the known methods of producing a non-celluloid TT ball, the ITTF would declare the switchover to the poly ball, the manufacturers would go along, and they would be able to get lucrative fees from licensing their patent to the various TT ball manufacturers.

Of course, all of this is pure speculation--I have no direct knowledge of any of this. It could be that Ms. Yoo filed the patent without her husband's knowledge or input. Maybe they did predict things correctly and their worldwide effort to keep us playing with celluloid balls is off to a smashing start. Maybe Dr. Kuhn is the "Edward Snowden" of the ITTF--exposing their diabolical attempts at making us all play with the dreaded poly balls and thwarting those efforts by filing these patents to make it financially improbable for manufacturers to produce poly balls.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final outcome will be.

Larry

Hmmm.....who knows what this means???? What will the ITTF do? I hope they stick with celluloid, honestly. Raising the costs of equipment and alienating manufacturers isn't a way to make friends. This patent stuff....

I wonder about the line insinuating that it would be easy to "dodge" the patent.

I dunno.

I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone, but it's sketchy.

As far as motive, that seems like an expensive, risky way to try to stop celluloid from going away.

_________________
Happy Holidays 'round the world!

Here's the paragraph verbatim from the lawyer's report:

Possible Circumventions

The European patent can be circumvented, if the table tennis ball is not free of “Zelluloid”. Thus, say a contents of 5% or more “Zelluloid” in the resin makes the table tennis ball to fall outside the scope of the European patent.

The patents are written in such a way that they cover practically all known plastics that could be used to make a TT ball that are not celluloid. This patent claims protection over a range of materials by purposefully excluding celluloid and polystyrene.

Larry

I'm not sure that raising the costs of equipment (balls) is part of this latest fiasco. If what we're being told is true--that celluloid is being phased out worldwide--that would make it more expensive than alternative, more readily available plastics.

Also I'm certain that shipping costs and hassles will be reduced. Right now, for instance, even if we only include a small amount of celluloid balls in a container, the entire container has to be declared "hazardous" and we have to pay extra fees and use only limited supply "hazardous" containers. We also have to mark each box containing celluloid balls "hazardous". These are steps that would disappear if we went with a non-celluloid plastic ball.

So for this selfish reason, I'm actually in favor of switching over to poly balls. As a player, however, I do wish that they can develop a durable non-celluloid ball that plays similar to the current celluloid ball. The latest batch of seamed poly balls I tried out are pretty close, IMO, but too many are badly out-of-round. If these can be made more consistently round, I would be OK with it.

Larry

Yeah. This is the guy who was promoting the new poly ball two years ago.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mytischtennis.de%2Fpublic%2Fpanorama%2F1163%2Fschon-wieder-ein-neuer-ball-der-hoert-sich-kaputt-an&sl=de&tl=en

While the google translation is far from perfect, this doesn't seem like what we'd hear from someone who want to continue to use celluloid. Also, not that no mention is made at all about his wife having patent rights on a new poly ball.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

If celluloid manufacturing for TT balls is being phased out worldwide, it is almost surely BECAUSE of the ITTF actions. Sharara recanted his original claim of a worldwid ban and neither he nor anyone from the ITTF has presented any information that supports the claim. That said, it is quite possible that using celluloid makes it more expensive to manufacturer TT balls. I have no way of knowing.



Yes, this is an unfortunate situation for makers of tennis gear like robots. So I can understand why you'd prefer the change to poly. But from the standpoint of the sport as a whole, it is pretty trivial. I can get 72 training balls from Zeropong delivered to my house for a mere $23 (that's total, balls + shipping). The hazardous material premium just can't be that much in general if celluloid balls can be had that cheaply.

BTW, I think FIT wants the change as well. Their first letter to the ITTF lead off with a glowingly positive description of the new balls. This isn't something you'd likely do if you didn't want to make the change. It seems like they want the change - they just want it on their terms. So I see this letter from the attorney as being merely a bump in the road. I think it will only amount to more than that if it introduces enough of a delay to allow others to attempt an intervention. But that seems unlikely.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

Yeah, I honestly don't believe that celluloid as a material is going away, unless it's because the ITTF are stopping the ping-pong ball celluloid production. There's no evidence...Paper is pretty flammable, and also not too great on the trees, but it's not stopping in production anytime soon. Yes we are trying to recycle, but paper is being made.

And if the manufacturers have to buy new equipment, that'll raise costs. Also, if they have to buy permission to use the patent, that'll raise cost.

Not to mention the reviews so far of playing performance.

At this point, from my perspective, the cons outweigh the pros.

I'd love for someone to change my mind.

_________________
Happy Holidays 'round the world!

Celluloid might very well go away. It has been fading from use for over a century now and table tennis balls have been one of the last things that use true celluloid. If you look at the history of celluloid, it is regularly replaced by superior materials. So why does it persist with table tennis balls? Well because nobody has presented clearly superior material for that use. Nitro cellulose, the dangerous component of celluloid, is alive and kicking and being made all over the world. That fact is what makes the notion of a ban on celluloid pretty silly. There are surely reasons to prefer other plastics over celluloid for economic and other pragmatic reasons. But reason enough to ban it? That's very unlikely. They aren't banning nitro cellulose in China. So why ban celluloid? "No reason" is why.

Regular market forces have pushed celluloid out of a wide variety of uses. But for reasons that aren't clear, some folks at the ITTF weren't willing to let regular market forces do what they do with celluloid. The option has been around for decades now, but nobody has yet made a replacement that was generally considered suitable. So they decided to give it a push for reasons that we can only guess. And it is still unclear whether any of the plastic formulations provide a suitable replacement material.

BTW, short term costs surely will go up. Long term costs may go down. It's anybody's guess (with manufacturers perhaps excepted) at this juncture.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

I suppose you're right, wturber. Celluloid is really only used in ping-pong balls and guitar picks. In the long run, it would probably be better to make the switch, but like you said, it's not super pressing.

My true concern is with affect on gameplay. If they found a material to use that created the same (at least extremely close) characteristics as the celluloid ball, I'd be fine.

This whole patent craziness is, however, a new issue. Who knows where it'll all end up.

_________________
Happy Holidays 'round the world!

Yes. I suppose it's anybody's guess. Just keep in mind that this latest development is merely one lawyer's opinion. Lawyers often disagree with each other and clients don't always heed the advise of lawyers. As with doctors, getting a second opinion is often wise. For all we know, FIT may move forward and wait for the patent holders to file some action to stop them - at which time they may set about trying to get the patent invalidated.

What's interesting is that all FIT needs is a letter of permission or a simple $1 contract from the patent holders in order to move forward. So the fact that they are investigating and having a lawyer look into it suggests that the patent holders are probably looking to assert their patent and not give it away.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist & Dr. Evil

FIT is a strange organisation... I've tried to contact them on several occasions, via all the contact details on their contact page, and I never got a response via any of them. Gives the impression that they're a bit of an 'exclusive boys clubs' that are not really interested in growing their membership.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide