OOAK Table Tennis Forum

A couple of quick thoughts regarding your forehand chop technique - feel free to take them or leave them as desired.

Take another look at the video, looking specifically at

a) Your bending from the waist;
b) your shoulder level;
c) your left foot

The FH chop is a stroke that uses a lot of body muscles, which need to work together properly to give solid, stable technique that will stand up under pressure. I don't think your current technique will do that, and here's why:

Most forehand chops are played around waist to knee high, roughly. This means you often need to get lower to hit the ball. You are currently doing this by tilting from the waist, as if you are doing a sidebend. This allows you to get your right hand lower, but dips the right shoulder too much and lifts the left shoulder too much. It also ruins your balance, as you can see by the way that your left foot keeps coming up off the ground. Finally, it makes the stroke technique difficult, since your shoulder and swing mechanic is not comfortable and stable for hitting down and through the ball, you are forced to curve your swing early, reducing your hitting zone. Short, low balls are especially difficult with your current technique - you will tend to hit them up and to the side due to your swing path.

Try this instead for a more stable chop.

1) Bring the right foot back for deep balls, and bring the left foot forward for short balls. The idea is to have the right foot a decent distance behind the left foot. Also make sure your right toes point a bit to the side, so you can bend your knee and put weight on it.

2) Maintain a slight forward lean from the waist, and turn the waist to the right horizontally, rotating the hips and upper body, instead of doing a side bend. There will be some shoulder tilt to the right, but much less.

3) Use your knees to lower yourself, if needed. You won't have to bend them as much as you think, since you will be lower because you have maintained your forward lean. More weight on the right leg if going back, and more weight on left leg if coming forward, but you should have no problem keeping both feet on the ground and staying balanced.

4) Stroke down and forward until your swing naturally curves off to your forward left. This will be a more stable swing path for your chop which should stand up under pressure and allow you to use pretty much the same swing against both short, deep, low and high balls. It gives you a large hitting zone and reduces the need to time the ball perfectly.

5) Recover back to neutral position.

Anyway, just my 2c worth.

Cheers,

_________________
Perth Table Tennis Club

Thanks for your input Greg, really appreciate that.

I have a lot of difficulty putting weight on my right leg. Not because of my knee injury directly, but because I've spent ~5 years subconsciously putting all of my weight on my left foot (and thus have many an associated issue with back pain). I can do it, I just need to keep doing it.

The other issue I had, specifically with Dale - the lad in that video - is that he puts quite a lot of natural sidespin on his loop, so the ball seemed to be going forever away from me. I'd plant my right foot in the same way that I would for a loop, then suddenly I'd find myself reaching because the spin has taken the ball away from me. Some of the time, I think this is why my left foot was coming off the ground.

I'll give all of your suggestions a go though. I could really do with practising this against a robot first so I can feel/see what your form looks like before trying to do it against spinny loops that kick away from me!

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Haven't updated this in a while but I've been playing as actively as ever.

Coaching
Here's my latest video. A coaching session with Dave. I was tired, and frustrated, so this isn't me at my best - neither in terms of play or attitude. Apologies in advance



I'm still trying to work on my forehand chop. It still feels unnatural. What I found in this session with Dave was that I can play the stroke with very little issue when I'm standing still, but as soon as I'm a millimetre out of position I completely lose the ability to even land the ball on the table. I'm nowhere near as dynamic as a chopper on my forehand as I am on my backhand.

In addition, my brain just isn't "set up" to play forehand chops. On my backhand, I always move naturally into the correct position. Sometimes I'm too slow against better players but I know where I need to be and I find the right distance easily. On my forehand, my feet are nearly always in the wrong position - often quite literally the wrong way round (e.g. right foot in front) and my distance is rarely correct.

I'm trying to work on this, but finding it difficult. As soon as I set up for a "forehand chop" drill, my mind gets my feet into the right position etc. Then, when I go into a match, I'm totally lost again. I've done one coaching session and one practice session on forehand chopping in the last week yet last night when I played two leagues matches I didn't do anything other than roll on the forehand side. Keep trying!

League
My league season finished last night. My results can be found here: https://www.tabletennis365.com/northumb ... ght/116337

For my team, out of 54 games, I won 29. That gives me an average of 55.56%. This gives me an 11% rise in comparison to last season. I'm happy with that because the division is generally a lot more challenging this year, plus I "wasted" a good number of results - more on that below.

Equipment
I've changed equipment far too often this year. My usual rule is that for league play I choose a setup at the beginning of the season and stick with it. This time I started with H3 inv/FL3 pips.

In December, I decided to move to LT Sound inverted. I did this because I felt like I lacked pace and penetration, especially away from the table. This worked, in practice, but in league matches I found that I just couldn't keep the ball on the table - bizarrely, against weaker players. When I got popups from serves and pimples, I couldn't put the ball away. It affected my confidence massively and as a result I lost some league matches that I think it's fair to say I would've most likely won with a slower rubber.

Shortly after this, I changed the FL3 (~1.5mm) to Curl P1-R (~1.5mm). I was using the FL3 because it gave me confidence when pushing, plus I could loop with it a bit. On chops though, I just didn't feel the bite at all - nor did it really have any pimple effect. I went back to my favourite ever LP and it's the best move I've made equipment-wise. I've never used the thicker sponge P1-R but I absolutely love it. It gives me a lot of bite on chops, plus some pimples effect AND I can loop/roll with it. It's not as inverted-like as the FL3 but it's absolutely perfect for my game. I can't see me changing this at all in the future.

At the start of February I then changed back to Hurricane 3 NEO (2.15mm) on my forehand. I haven't boosted it, and it feels really slow... but it works. After a bit of practice, I then proceeded to win 13 matches on the bounce in the Premier division including some wins against players I'd never beaten before. I'm really happy with that. I want something quicker in the future, but I need to keep working on the "loop kill" stroke, especially off shorter/higher balls, before I can consider moving to something quicker. I've got a friend going back to Hong Kong in June and he says he might be able to get me a genuine provincial H3 NEO so if he can, I'll use that. Should be a step up in terms of speed without reaching tensor levels.

Onwards and upwards...
Our summer league starts soon. I'm no longer playing for Cramlington - I have moved to a club called Springwell where I'll have significantly more space. I'm not intending to pay much attention to my average in this league, I'm going to use it to practice my defence - even against players who don't attack me. I need to work on my defensive short game as well as my pushing and chopping generally, and this is where I intend to do it. If I want to move up to beat players at the next level (70%+ in Premier), this is where I need to improve.

In the following winter season, Chun Yin Yu (probably the 2nd best player in our league) has asked if I want to play with him for the North East Chinese Association team. If that's an option when we get to September, I'll take it - even just getting to knock up with him all season would help me significantly. He's really spinny, has a great touch and is a brilliant blocker.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Well, that'w why I don't FH chop anymore, except when there's time. If you watch young Joo, you'll see his FH is incorporated in his game, but far less than when he's older.

What will you do when you're one of the bes tplayers in the Premier league?

I'll certainly never be a classic defender, I'm far too impatient. As much as I've tried, even when it means missing, I can't "defend" high balls. Saying that though, I think the forehand chop is an important part of a defender's game... and most importantly, I love doing it! I seem to naturally get a lot of spin on my forehand chops and this appears to catch players out. If I can make that consistent, and possibly even throw in a floaty chop at times, it'll be a real weapon for me. Going to take a lot of practice though, which will slow further development of my forehand loop.

It'll be years yet before I can challenge for the top spots in the Premier division. Our best player spent a few years playing semi-professionally for a team in Belgium (Houthulst?) when he was younger. He's a really classy player and is psychologically the strongest player I've ever seen - proper battler.

I entered British League last season. Division 4 (out of 5). There's a post about it in here somewhere. Unfortunately, despite winning 4/4 and 2 Player of the Match awards (my profile here), the team decided they wanted a local player to play instead of me. However, now that I've got my foot in the door, and my online profile to show it, I'm hoping that it should be easier to find a team.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Not sure how long you have been working on FH chopping, but it's usually 6 months to two years of drilling before a skill becomes fully natural.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

True, it's an important skill for a modern defender, but IMO one of variation. Can you name the player who played for Houthulst?

I've been practising the stroke on and off for quite a while now, but I've probably only given it ~20 hours of actual practice.

The stroke itself feels much more natural now than it ever did, though I know it still needs work. Tt's the positioning which I'm finding horrendously abnormal though, and I'm also finding it difficult to practice. This is an area where I feel attackers require less practice, and one of the reasons I think it takes longer to develop as a defensive player.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Have sent you a PM my friend

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Topspin has more consistency built into it but I don't see the learning curve you are facing being any different from that of a proficient looper vs. backspin (since you are chopping topspin and not backspin). You are doing the inverse equivalent of looping heavy chop by chopping balls at the level you are.

I couldn't teach anyone any skill at that high a level in 20 hours. For 20 hours, your comments sound overly optimistic in terms of where you think you should be, to be honest. And obviously, it is the getting into position and anticipation to use the stroke in actual matches that lags everything else. The magic aha moment when everything clicks never announces itself and never feels like it but it's the hours that add up. What I do hear in your comments, and I hope I am wrong, is a view that this should be easier than it is, I wouldn't be surprised if you were a full year from becoming truly proficient with rallying in matches and that would probably require you to throw in at least another 30 training hours in the interim.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Sorry, when I say 20 hours, I mean like *literally* 20 hours of repeated chops. Not 20 lots of 1 hour practice sessions where you're picking balls up for 20 minutes etc

I don't expect that to make me brilliant, far from it. However, to use your analogy, if I had been looping backspin balls for 20 hours, I guarantee I would be more proficient at it than I am the forehand chop.

When I'm looping vs. backspin, I get my right foot about 30cm away from the ball and I bend my knees ready to play the stroke. To get into position for this stroke, at most, I need to move sideways. If I have to move too far sideways, I can just push the ball.

However, for chopping, you have to move in two dimensions which makes it much tougher. The ball is coming at you faster too.

I suppose a better analogy might be counter-looping. Let's be honest though, how many games up until maybe USATT 2300+ do you actually see counterloops? Backhand to backhand, sure. Counterloops? Not too often. A chopper on the other hand has to rely on that stroke.

My backhand chopping stroke came quite quickly too (although probably quicker than the forehand chop)... but the positioning didn't. So, I just need to keep working on positioning myself correctly.

The difficulty I'm having is... how do I practice that?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Do you chop on the forehand with pips?

As for the backspin, if you spent 20 hours looping heavy chop, I doubt it.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I occasionally do chop with the LPs on my forehand but only if I've been caught out, e.g. twiddled to attack on the backhand then suddenly the ball gets looped to my forehand.

It's easier to control the chop with LPs on the forehand, so if I'm a bit out of position I can just chop down with them a little bit and they'll tend to go on. You can't get as much spin/variation with them though, and obviously it throws looping/rolling out of the equation.

Had another session with Dave today and I hadn't been golfing beforehand this time, so I was much better. Much more energy, much less frustrated, easier to get over bad shots etc. when you're not aching and tired. We worked on similar stuff to the previous video but also added some fast multiball into the mix, as well as some 3rd ball receive drills. Definitely felt more confident. I'm still making a lot of mistakes but now I'm starting to be able to put my finger on *why* I'm making said mistakes, e.g. I'll put my foot too near the ball and immediately think "my foot wasn't in the right position". For me that's key to making progress.

Just need to keep on top of it now. Possibly find a right-hander who can consistently loop my chop. Unfortunately in my area such players appear to be fairly few and far between.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

I am currently a bit annoyed with table tennis. Actually that's not fair, I'm annoyed at myself primarily...

I had a couple of really poor defeats on Wednesday. I've been playing golf a lot this week and my back/shoulders are killing. I just couldn't muster the energy/motivation/effort required to play well, and I hadn't played in 8 days so my forehand went walkabout entirely. I know that another evening I wouldn't have had these issues so I should just be fine with that and move on.

Instead, the following day, I took to the practice hall and played ~20 ends with my regular practice partner. I didn't really fancy using my usual setup but I did for at least 16 ends. It was fine, everything felt OK, I won the majority and my forehand was no problem.

However for the last 4 ends I tried my old setup - Butterfly Defence Pro, T05 forehand and P1-R 0.5mm backhand. It felt very nice. It felt lighter so my wrist hurt less on backhand loops and the pimples felt much grippier (e.g. someone loops, all I need is a tiny downward motion to get the pimples "working" and effect a chop).

I stopped using this setup because I had issues with the forehand being too fast and the pimples being rubbish for pushing with. In comparison to my current setup though, it feels lovely...

I've got a practice session tomorrow and a difficult game on Tuesday. Hopefully tomorrow I'll just continue playing with my usual setup but I know there's a chance I'll think "oh let's give the other bat a go". I wish I didn't feel like that!!

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Wait until you'll encounter the reasons again you've stopped using that old setup at a bad moment. It'll heal the EJ bug in less than a second.