OOAK Table Tennis Forum

It's out already???? (I just checked TT11, not on there yet..)

Ah..

http://nexy.com/tabletennis/en/rubber/165-karis-m.html

"MX-K is a Tibhar brand rubber, but all rubbers are to delivered to Korea, and Nexy headquarters will be selling to all countries. "

So it's essentially a special product made for Nexy. Much like that "50 degree National MX-P" with the German flag on the front that was a special product made for a Chinese distributor. According to the article it uses the same thinking that went into Karis, made by ESN instead of Japanese OEM Daiki.

$55.. a fair amount pricier than other Evolution rubbers. And I'm still not convinced that Evolution rubbers are actually made in Germany, but that's another matter.

Since this isn't an equipment topic, I'll ask a question about technique here. Some decades ago, our University club paid Danny Seemiller to come down for one night and coach us. Danny came down with Ricky and one or two others. Among the bits of advice I still remember to this day was about elbow position - it depends on where you wish to hit the ball. For a forehand topspin drive, to hit the ball cross-court (i.e. from right to left) you'd lift your elbow, hold it away from the body. To hit the ball down the line, or to hit a "fade" (or, in golfing terms, a "slice") you'd move your elbow closer to the body. For a backhand, it's the opposite - elbow close to the body for a cross-court shot and away from the body for a shot down the line.

Any comments? Is this still something that is taught today, or is varying elbow position discouraged altogether? Danny said this is something lower level players fail to do because they usually just hit cross-court.

Iskandar

I wish there was a TTEdge video about changing directions... It is a tricky topic not covered much by online tutorials and it seems that there are some important details there. I am personally very comfortable with changing directions on my FH, but on BH I don't even bother doing it if I am trying to win, though I did practice it quite a bit.

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Tactics Enthusiast

It's not about changing direction per se, but about hitting balls in certain directions. If the elbow thing is correct, then if you're doing backhand crosscourt topspin counter drills with a partner you'd still want to hold your elbow closer in to the body compared to when you're doing the counter down the line. I'm wondering if this is actually a good idea or if there are "more modern" methods of aiming the ball in certain directions.

My backhand topspin drive is quite shaky, but I've gotten better at it over the last few months. I mainly hit balls crosscourt because that's the most natural, especially against high, loose balls. Hitting balls down the line is quite a bit more difficult. What I _have_ been doing is doing a half-roll half-push off to the left (i.e. further to my backhand), kinda like a mini-strawberry. At least at my level it seems quite effective, since it puts the ball way over to the opponent's forehand, out of easy reach, and they really have to stretch to reach it.

Iskandar

I have no trouble hitting BHs down the line as long as the ball comes back to me down the line as well. What I struggle with is playing a series of BHs crosscourt, and then changing the direction to down the line. I believe the only correct way to do so is to play a massive fade, but I could be wrong. I never thought about the elbow positions in this context, maybe Seemiller was right, I don't know.

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Tactics Enthusiast

The thing is, though.. how do you execute the fade? Do you raise the elbow? Or is it a change in wrist angle? Or a combination of the two?

Iskandar

When I practice fade I mostly try to consciously adjust my wrist. Probably something else (e.g. elbow position change) happens as well, but I never tried to control it. The general observation is that if I try to change direction by playing a straight topspin ball, the success rate is like 10%. If I try to fade, it is much higher. Which makes me wonder if it because my technique sucks or it is indeed better to fade it.

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Tactics Enthusiast

Hmm. I suppose now I need to find out exactly what a "fade" is. From watching one of William Henzel's videos, I was under the impression it is what we sometimes call an "inside out" shot - one that was aimed in the opposite direction of a cross-court shot (e.g. a right handed forehand fade would be aimed to the right, a right handed backhand fade to the left). Looking it up on Wikipedia, apparently the term isn't used (as far as I can tell) in lawn tennis, but is used in golf. And in golf, it's not just a shot aimed to the right (for a right hander), it CURVES to the right due to imparted sidespin. A more extreme (and accidental) version of a fade would be a "slice", a term we used to use back in the Usenet days to describe what we now call an inside-out shot. (The opposite shot, also borrowing from golf, would be a "hook"). So is a fade a shot with significant deliberate sidespin, or is it just a shot aimed opposite to the crosscourt direction?

Iskandar

When I mean fade I mean a sidespin shot. One can obviously play a fade cross-court or towards any other directions.

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Tactics Enthusiast

Ah.. thanks for the clarification. It's not the same as Henzel's fade, in that case.

Iskandar

This is a good topic. There are quite a few ways to do this but the simplest one is to realign your swing direction with where you want the ball to go. Usually going down the line involves taking the ball later in your strike zone. Usually ie you hit the ball at say 2 o clock in your stroke path to go cross court on your forehand, you would hit it at 3 o clock to go down the line as at 3 o clock, your racket would likely be going down the line on the forehand.

The backhand is interesting. Some players just square their shoulders toward where they want to go. Some people take the ball later just like on the forehand. I saw a coach online recently teaching to hit the right side of the ball to go down the line and the left side of the ball to go cross court. This is what I am using right now in practice to build out my change of direction backhand. But I am sure there are other ways with their advantages and disadvantages.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

+1 for squaring your shoulders to face the direction you want the ball to go. Changing your swing to change direction is madness imo. Use the same swing but point it at where you want to place the ball.

There is a drill for this. Play bh to bh, yhen randomly, or any time after X shots, one player can redirect down the line, then free. More advanced is after X shots either can go down the line, then free.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

So no comments about elbow position?

Iskandar

Not from me. Other than I don't think it should change.

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Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

For the basic backhand block or punch, some coaches I have seen teach keeping the elbow closer to the body than you would see on a loop. But still in that dimension, changing direction would usually involve squaring your shoulders.

Liam Pitchford, Adrian Crisan and Jeoung Youngsik are world class players with incredible backhands and they hit the right side of the ball to redirect it down the line very often. As long as it works for you (and you can come up with your own way), just do it. I have started trying to hit the right side of the ball to send it down the line with my current stroke. At least that is what I imagine. Whatever actually happens, who knows...

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

To satisfy my curiosity I'll have to watch more videos of elite games and see how the pros do it. Do they use elbow position to change bat angle to direct the ball to the corners? There's definitely a LOT of balls to the corner and changes in direction, I'll just have pay attention and make notes.

Iskandar