OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 26 Oct 2020, 01:57


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2020, 23:44 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2019, 01:52
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Blade: Sanwei Su
FH: TSP Spectol
BH: Gewo Proton Neo 325
Hello there,

I know there is a lot of topics already about this, but as every human is different, so this question and the answers could be as well.

My story:

My name is Arnie, I started playing Table Tennis in about a year. You will laugh but my motivation came from the famous animation series "Table Tennis the Animation".
After I saw this masterpiece, I really wanted to start learning table tennis, especially play like Peco (the hero of the story), who is a penhold hitter in the story with SP on the forehand and inverted on the backhand side. My first experience with a coach was rather unpleasant, I told him that I would like to learn this style, he agreed to teach me, but all the session were about him nagging me to change to shakehand inverted. After a 4-5 session, I eventually left him and looked for another, who could accept my unusual request. Luckily I found a really good coach(rated in the top 30 in my country) he is a very nice and super good coach and he never questioned my choice of style and equipment.

But now after a year that I know a little bit more about TT, I feel like the short pips are harder and less forgiving to play than inverted.
If I miss the timing, or my racket angle is not proper, the ball just flies away from the table. With inverted it feels like I have much more time to react, I can stay further from the table and brush the ball back even if it's dropping down already.

So I don't really know what should I do, I really wanted to play with SP, but now it feels like they are inferior to inverted, since I can do all my shots with inverted just easier and with more control.

Equipment Sanwei SU-3 blade with Spectol and Gewo NeoGenesis


Are my intuition about sp and inverted are correct or I'm just really bad with them?
Should I switch to inverted or keep parcticing with SP and eventually things will get better?

I would be honored if you could give me any piece of advice.

Thanks in advance,
Arnie


Top
 Profile  
 


PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 00:15 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 2132
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 291 times
Been thanked: 285 times
Blade: Avalox P700
FH: RITC 802 1.8
BH: RITC 755 OX
I think it comes down to how you like to play, and what shots you enjoy playing. For me there's nothing nicer than the feel of a crisp short-pips hit, going like a bullet and skidding off the table. But if you prefer to bamboozle with devious shots, or overcome your opponent with powerful spin, then inverted might be a better bet. I do think that SP is more demanding of your timing, and the margin for error is less, but you also get some forgiveness in that you are better able to overcome the opponent's spin.

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 01:52 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 04:18
Posts: 550
Location: Wakefield UK
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 81 times
Blade: S&T Black & White
FH: Rasanter R42 2mm
BH: Spinlord Keiler 1.2mm
Agree with last post. Choose the equipment to match your preferred playing style. If you want to spin use inverted, to hit through spin choose SP.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 02:47 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 9649
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1181 times
Someday I've got to actually make time and watch that show. I've actually got the episodes.. and the live action version as well (if I can remember what I did with it...). Wasn't the main character a chopper, though? When someone mentions that show I always mention another one called Ping Pong Club, which I suggest you DON'T watch... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Speaking of Japanese live action movies featuring table tennis - there were two I've seen that I thought were excellent - "Onsen Takkyu" (or it might've been "Takkyu Onsen") and one that came out in the last year or two called "Mixed Doubles". The first was an excellent movie, the second had really good table tennis in it.

Anyhow.. back to the issue at hand. Yeah, it's easier to do a lot of things with inverted rubber. Short pips usually involves hitting balls at the top of the bounce, which means playing pretty close to the table. This is probably why there aren't many short pips attackers at the highest levels any more (the highest ranked male being Mattias Falck - who, unusually, plays short pips on the forehand, though it's sometimes hard to tell from the strokes he uses). Short pips hitting (one-sided penhold) was, at one time, the Chinese national style. Why did they get away from it? Because European loopers were starting to beat them (in the 1970s) so they decided to explore that sort of game and develop their own loopers.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 06:09 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2019, 01:52
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Blade: Sanwei Su
FH: TSP Spectol
BH: Gewo Proton Neo 325
Thank everyone for the comments and tips<3

@Iskandar
I really recommend you the animation it's just amazing, but the live-action is kinda bad I wouldn't waste my time on it.
I will definitely check out the ones you mentioned. Cheers!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 06:28 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 2132
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 291 times
Been thanked: 285 times
Blade: Avalox P700
FH: RITC 802 1.8
BH: RITC 755 OX
If you want to see the perfect exponent of penhold SP hitting, checkout Liu Guoliang. He used a range of SP over his career - some of which are no longer legal. The closest you could get to his setup now would be something like a Stiga Clipper or an Avalox P700 (which is what I use) and Friendship 802-40 or 802 (again what I use). Not that there is anything wrong with Spectol!

You'll doubtless hear discussion about the difference of the new ball (indeed two generations of new ball!), but at anywhere up to strong national level the style is completely viable, and the equipment likewise.

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 07:18 
Offline
Full member
User avatar

Joined: 08 Oct 2019, 21:09
Posts: 71
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 14 times
Blade: Joola Carbon Pro
FH: LKT Rapid Speed 1.8
BH: Tibhar Grass D'tecs - OX
LordCope wrote:
I think it comes down to how you like to play, and what shots you enjoy playing. For me there's nothing nicer than the feel of a crisp short-pips hit, going like a bullet and skidding off the table. But if you prefer to bamboozle with devious shots, or overcome your opponent with powerful spin, then inverted might be a better bet. I do think that SP is more demanding of your timing, and the margin for error is less, but you also get some forgiveness in that you are better able to overcome the opponent's spin.


I really agree a lot with the above. For me it's all about spin (and reversal) but my timing isn't that great. For me short pips really hurt my game. But one of my teammates isn't all that great with understanding spin while his timing is impecable, for him short pips made everything easier. He always says it's like playing at 80% of an inverted rubber. All spin is less troublesome and there is more room for error (while for me the spin creates more room for error) and even though he feels like he has to put more power in every shot his shots are still at a faster pace than my fastest hits.

_________________
~ Puttin' pressure on you kids like I'm a soccer mom. ~


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 08:04 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 2132
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 291 times
Been thanked: 285 times
Blade: Avalox P700
FH: RITC 802 1.8
BH: RITC 755 OX
Carpe Noctem wrote:
He always says it's like playing at 80% of an inverted rubber. All spin is less troublesome and there is more room for error


I have to respectfully disagree with your team mate in a few regards. From the perspective of someone who has played with SP on their FH for the best part of 4-5 years, but also has played with inverted on the FH, and plays with inverted when coaching or training with players who prefer it, I would say:

Firstly, I don't really agree that SP is like 80% of an inverted (although granted I am not clear exactly what he means by this). There are fairly significant differences between inverted and SP - especially service and service return, and your ability to play away from the table is severely restricted. Playing using SP with regular topspin technique will be comparatively ineffective, and even very spinny pips won't be that close in ability to generate spin either on serve or on full strokes, compared to an inverted rubber. You'll hear people tell you that eg 802-40 is "inverted-like" - but I don't really think that's true.

Secondly, I don't really agree that there is more room for error with SP - it's just different. Sure, you can get away with misreading spin a little, which might be what your team mate means, but on the other hand the arc you get from spinning the ball with inverted gives you a greater margin for error than with short pips. If your timing is a bit early or a bit late with SP, the chances of you hitting the net or going off the table are much greater than with inverted.

So it's a trade-off. If your timing is good, you like playing near the table, you like the feel (and tactics) of a flat hit, you like being able to hit through spin, and you like a little forgiveness in service return, you may feel the trade-off is worthwhile.

At the end of the day it's down to practice and preference. To the OP - I'd be a much better player now if I'd stuck with one style and broad equipment choice. It's fine to chop and change, and it can be fun and rewarding, but it will probably hold your level back. Overall - trust your heart - we play this game for fun, for joy. If you imagine yourself as a short pips penhold hitter, just stick at it, and you'll become one. If you can find someone who knows how to play or coach this style, even better. But don't give up on your ideal because the road gets bumpy :)

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 08:32 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User

Joined: 08 Apr 2015, 11:50
Posts: 1393
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 168 times
There are more forgiving pips to play with than Spectol also. But it does come down to how you want to play, and especially how far from the table. Short pips is a very demanding style to play because you have to stay close and you must be on time. Is it your nature to always want to attack?

But no looper walks up to the table and sees they are playing a short pips hitter and thinks "Oh good, this will be fun." It's a terrifying style to play against. If you haven't ever played vs short pips attack, maybe try to find an opponent to give you a match and see what you are shooting for, before you change your mind.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 15:53 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2019, 01:52
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Blade: Sanwei Su
FH: TSP Spectol
BH: Gewo Proton Neo 325
@LordCope
I feel exactly how you described it, If I don't hit in the right time all my shots are going to be missed, also I cant really feel this hitting trough spin thing, I read it on a lot of sites that SP can do this, but I just couldn't, unless the ball pops up higher. My coach told me that hitting every ball is really risky and I shouldn't do it.

The thing is with TableTennis is that there are so many styles and so many equipment combinations to choose from that's it very hard to decide what to choose. This is one thing I really like about this sport there is a lot of room for tinkering. I have often been told that don't change your racket or rubbers just choose one and play with it, but how one can choose something without trying out the options first?

Also, I feel that there is common hate towards pimples, at least at my level which is Amateur, I always got judging eyes and even some comments about my choice of equipment or just hearing people talking next to me saying how easy is to play with pips.

Anyhow thanks everyone for the comments. Currently, I'm building a table tennis robot and hope that it will allow me to experiment and compare different blades and rubbers and to find the right style for myself.

Cheers!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2020, 18:04 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 2132
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 291 times
Been thanked: 285 times
Blade: Avalox P700
FH: RITC 802 1.8
BH: RITC 755 OX
You've accurately described many things! First - table tennis is a highly technical sport. It happens very quickly, in a small space, with a lot of spin. To control the ball you need to be good at controlling your body, but also at understanding what your opponent has done. It's very difficult. I remember when I started playing at a club how astonished I was at the skill and power of these old men who could beat me with their eyes closed. But persevere - it will come. The people who used to beat me 11-0, or had to give me a huge head start, or play with their non-dominant hand... these people I beat easily now. It just took a long time.

In terms of "hitting through spin" - this is a bit misleading. You can't ignore spin, but your ability to attack a spinny shot is much greater. There's no magic bullet - reading and reacting to spin just takes time. Playing with inverted is even more frustrating because the bat will be much more reactive, especially at service return. However, once you get the hang of it, you also have lots of control, by adjusting the angle of the bat, and the way you contact the ball. You'll probably progress in this area more quickly if you use a regular inverted rubber.

Your coach is absolutely right - hitting every ball isn't a good idea. So you need some safer shots too - blocks, placed drives, etc. You'll soon learn which balls you can hit, and with time the number you can hit will increase.

When it comes to tinkering, I agree with you, and many on here will too. It can be a lot of fun, and is one aspect of the game that some people enjoy very much. There's two sides to it - one one hand, people (definitely including me) can be very skeptical about equipment changes. In practice your mind and body will adapt very quickly, and what feels radically different will soon become normal. This is why I am able to practice for 2 hours with my brother with a regular 2 x inverted setup, playing regular shorts FH ad BH, or feed him multiball, and then switch to a match situation with my normal setup (SP/LP) and adapt very quickly. Equipment is also not a shortcut - there's no magic rubber that solves table tennis. It's always a set of trade-offs. Skim through these pages and you will find every day people searching for the perfect combinaton that will both compensate for their inability to returrn spinny serves, yet also generate huge spin on serves... that can have huge passive spin reversal, yet can also be used to vary spin when defending. These things don't exist - it's just a set of compromises. It's a lot of fun (although can become expensive an addictive) to experiment with all the diffferent options, and you'll learn a lot about the game, and yourself, by doing it. But it will, in simple terms, not be the most effective way to achieve fast acquisition of the fundamental skills of table tennis. But if that isn't your objective, who cares!

You're also right that there's a lot of dislike of pimples, anti-spin, etc - sometimes called "junk rubbers". That's just part of the game. Let me set some perspective for you: 1) It is not "easy" to play with pimples. It's actually very difficult. In practice it will give you a small advantage against weak players, but very soon the level of player increases, and again it becomes - you guessed it - just a trade-off. 2) People who lose to pimples and complain about it are just bad players and bad losers - there's nothing mysterious about someone using pimples. As a double inverted player against, eg, a LP player, you have all the control. If the grumblers haven't worked that out, they're just showing their ignorance. 3) There's nothing "immoral" or "cheating" about pimples. On the contrary - look at the players spending literally hundreds of dollars on hi-tec rubbers with the latest grip and catapult effect, and factory-tuning, and boosting etc. My rubbers have existed on the market for 30+ years, and cost about $10 each. Pimple-out rubbers predate the modern trend for "reverse" or "inverted" rubbers. The rules are quite clear when it comes to what racket covering are legal - and short, medium, or long pimples are perfectly legal. If you want to look at what isn't legal, look into "boosting". I'd say in my experience I have met more people playing with boosted rubbers than banned or treated pimples. So if you come across people who say "well played bat" or mutter "I'd beat him with a regular bat" just smile to yourself.... or offer to play them with sandpaper bats, or offer to swap bats and see how they get on with a penhold sp setup - they'll soon understand it's not as easy as they think, and doesn't really confer any great advantage.

I'm glad you've joined this forum - it's full of people who have and do experiment, and use pimples, and full of people with a lot of experience, from all walks of life. Chill out, and enjoy your table tennis!

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 08:53 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 00:16
Posts: 677
Location: Cyberjaya, Malaysia
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 73 times
Blade: Timo Boll Spirit
FH: H3 neo 40 Degrees
BH: Tenergy 05
iskandar taib wrote:
Someday I've got to actually make time and watch that show. I've actually got the episodes.. and the live action version as well (if I can remember what I did with it...). Wasn't the main character a chopper, though? When someone mentions that show I always mention another one called Ping Pong Club, which I suggest you DON'T watch... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Speaking of Japanese live action movies featuring table tennis - there were two I've seen that I thought were excellent - "Onsen Takkyu" (or it might've been "Takkyu Onsen") and one that came out in the last year or two called "Mixed Doubles". The first was an excellent movie, the second had really good table tennis in it.

Anyhow.. back to the issue at hand. Yeah, it's easier to do a lot of things with inverted rubber. Short pips usually involves hitting balls at the top of the bounce, which means playing pretty close to the table. This is probably why there aren't many short pips attackers at the highest levels any more (the highest ranked male being Mattias Falck - who, unusually, plays short pips on the forehand, though it's sometimes hard to tell from the strokes he uses). Short pips hitting (one-sided penhold) was, at one time, the Chinese national style. Why did they get away from it? Because European loopers were starting to beat them (in the 1970s) so they decided to explore that sort of game and develop their own loopers.

Iskandar


thanks for the recommendation, i hadnt tried any beside ping pong the animation


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 09:08 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 00:16
Posts: 677
Location: Cyberjaya, Malaysia
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 73 times
Blade: Timo Boll Spirit
FH: H3 neo 40 Degrees
BH: Tenergy 05
Arnie wrote:
Hello there,

I know there is a lot of topics already about this, but as every human is different, so this question and the answers could be as well.

My story:

My name is Arnie, I started playing Table Tennis in about a year. You will laugh but my motivation came from the famous animation series "Table Tennis the Animation".
After I saw this masterpiece, I really wanted to start learning table tennis, especially play like Peco (the hero of the story), who is a penhold hitter in the story with SP on the forehand and inverted on the backhand side. My first experience with a coach was rather unpleasant, I told him that I would like to learn this style, he agreed to teach me, but all the session were about him nagging me to change to shakehand inverted. After a 4-5 session, I eventually left him and looked for another, who could accept my unusual request. Luckily I found a really good coach(rated in the top 30 in my country) he is a very nice and super good coach and he never questioned my choice of style and equipment.

But now after a year that I know a little bit more about TT, I feel like the short pips are harder and less forgiving to play than inverted.
If I miss the timing, or my racket angle is not proper, the ball just flies away from the table. With inverted it feels like I have much more time to react, I can stay further from the table and brush the ball back even if it's dropping down already.

So I don't really know what should I do, I really wanted to play with SP, but now it feels like they are inferior to inverted, since I can do all my shots with inverted just easier and with more control.

Equipment Sanwei SU-3 blade with Spectol and Gewo NeoGenesis


Are my intuition about sp and inverted are correct or I'm just really bad with them?
Should I switch to inverted or keep parcticing with SP and eventually things will get better?

I would be honored if you could give me any piece of advice.

Thanks in advance,
Arnie



I love that anime man! masterpiece, even the styling and the deeper issue it tackles.

About equipments, i would say choose one that suits you best if , also the most fun for you!!! this is the most important, me myself i always fool around
earlier when i restart playing tt, from fast, pips, slow setups, super spinny, and now i kinda know what's my fav setup i try not to go to far out when buying new equipments>

and when u find out whats the most fun style to play ( defensive chopper, two wing looper) stick and be beter on it! more fun ensues!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 12:13 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 9649
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1181 times
Or you might find you suck at a certain style and are forced to change... :lol: I've gone from looping to a flatter topspin drive style. Shoulder feels a great deal better these days.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2020, 16:32 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 29 Nov 2019, 01:52
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 0 time
Blade: Sanwei Su
FH: TSP Spectol
BH: Gewo Proton Neo 325
Thank you everyone for the great comments, I just loved reading them trough, really appreciate it! You guys are the best <3

I decided I will build a few different setups, finish my DIY table tennis robot, and experiment until I find the right style and most fun for me.


It still needs a lot of work but that's where I'm at: https://youtu.be/GuHR3qjWUc8


Last edited by Arnie on 30 Jul 2020, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 28 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group